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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on July 18, 2012 at 9:26pm

We can be our own worst enemy.

So many beleive the whole mantra of "we save lives" or similar is our saving grace.

It's not. We need to educate the bean counters on what we actually do. We need to work to get rid of the perception that we sit around and watch TV all day. We need to think like a bean counter and prove the ROI on our budgets and spending.

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Permalink Reply by ashfire on July 19, 2012 at 8:19am

Not that I am coming down on unions because I belong to a union working for a county angency, but during our last election the county fire and police unions were involve in the election of the soon to be county executive and part of his office force after the election. They were working behind the scenes to change the emergency services by finding a way to undermine the volunteer half of the service by use of laws and bylaws.

One they decided to change the fire commission from all elected volunteers to adding 2 career and citizens to the group, next determ who is active on the rolls and lives in the county, determ the amount of money for training classes and where and when they will be held and move the two fire dept funds together and how the moneies will be spent.

 I do agree that changing the fire commission was a good thing because some of those elected had gotten tyrant attitudes and if some of them didn't like a chief or president of a volunteer company they would give that fire company a hard time getting anything.

One thing has been said is that the career side needed money to purchase needed items from the volunteer fund and the fire commission would not allow it. So the change of the fire commission was started by the county exec. Procedures are still being worked out at this time on how this will be done and  who will still be in the commission.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on July 19, 2012 at 1:58pm

They were working behind the scenes to change the emergency services by finding a way to undermine the volunteer half of the service by use of laws and bylaws.

 

Depends on perspective. In RTW states such as the one you are in, political action is the best way for the unions to look out for their membership. When you say they are finding ways to undermine the volunteers, it again depends upon what is actually being done, what you are listing here as examples, I can see why there was a push for such changes.

 

In regards to how the fire commission is established, I can understand the reasoning for having representatives of different dept composition on the board. If this is a county commission, and not just one for volunteers, then it makes sense that there are reps from career depts as well. I'm not sure how such a commission works in your area, we don't have a county fire commission here, but it makes sense that those in career depts and protected by career depts are paying taxes to the county as well, and thus should be equally represented.

 

The only similarity I can make here is in regards to the county sheriff. As a municipal taxpayer and resident, my fire and police protection comes from the city department, yet since I still pay county taxes, part of that money goes to the sheriff dept. The services I receive from the sheriff office is nil as compared to the city services, yet taxpayers like myself with municipal services are paying a large portion of county tax dollars in comparison to smaller communities. As such, why shouldn't there be a say by my elected officials (which we do have). So much like such a county fire commission in your area, why should vollies be making all the decisions when career covered areas are also paying into the county??

 

One thing has been said is that the career side needed money to purchase needed items from the volunteer fund and the fire commission would not allow it.

 

Said? Do you have confirmation or going on hearsay? Again such a subject can depend upon perspective as well and goes back to my previous comments. If municipalities covered by career depts are paying for county services, then why is there just a volunteer fund from the county commission? Why shouldn't career covered municipalities be able to ascertain needed items and use the same fund? How is that "undermining" volunteer depts if the funding is coming from several sources of revenue, not just those covered by volunteer depts?

 

Although it isn't mentioned the question of qualifications and training come into play and if this is being looked at as "undermining" volunteer depts as well? If looking to have a change in the commission for better and more equal representation, is the view of undermining being looked at as volunteer depts may see an increase in training requirements and basic qualifications that they are hesitent to enact?

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Permalink Reply by ashfire on July 19, 2012 at 8:10pm

Training was pushed by the county back years ago for the volunteers and many met the needed training and exceded most of it, but in the past few years money has fallen off from training classes because the state and the county have been having financial problems so less money for different needs.

Working for the county for 30 years all county workers had to be forced to take two weeks of furlow without pay twice since the 1980.

Some of the people volunteering were forced to leave the county for areas with less taxes and people moving in earn less and couldn't pay taxes and even house payments. They are also hard to ask to be volunteers also.

Our county has many vacant homes and apartments which our county based their tax revenue on plus a law to prevent raises in property taxes without voter approval.

We are also dealing with changes in what people believe in America. Just not the same people I know when I joined and ideas about life.

 

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on July 19, 2012 at 10:45pm

I won't pretend to understand the particular issues facing the county you are in, but what you are describing is nationwide as well. When you say people volunteering are "forced" to leave the county.....I'm guessing you mean that some of the regular volunteers have chosen to leave the area because of financial issues. Otherwise, how are such people being "forced" to leave?

 

I understand completely about levy caps etc to prevent the local jurisdictions from imposing increases to cover costs. Personally, I find it ironic those who preach for "smaller" government and government imposing on freedoms still advocate for such things where the bigger govt (state) is in turn telling smaller govts (local) on how to operate. Sure there is voter approval to go beyond such a cap, but a special election costs money, to campaign for it costs money, and to truly educate people why it would be needed costs time and money.....for something that may or may not come to fruition. Let's face it, despite what some particular individuals on this site advocate, realistically most of the general public has no informed idea of how their services operate.

 

As for the issue of the unions looking to political action, I still don't see examples of where the volunteers are being underminded here. In fact I see perhaps how career depts and those with unions have been underminded, especially with an all volly commission. Right now, from what you have expressed, I see a balance of the commission. I could understand if the entire commission was replaced by all career personnel, but I'm not seeing that.....so I'm still curious as to how the volunteers feel they are being underminded against because political action worked for the unions this time?? 

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Permalink Reply by ashfire on July 21, 2012 at 9:31pm

Before the last county exec, who was in office for eight years, the fire combo fire service worked together under some good career fire chiefs. Then there were chiefs that had both sides at odds with the chief or the chief that right  off the bat told the volunteers he was in charge and not to expect much. He lasted a few years until he was replaced by another chief who wanted to work with the volunteers.

He was replaced when the next county exec took office and the present chief took office.

Then acourse the county exec who was replaced and his wife, a county council woman both were indicted in federal courts for involvement in a money scam for real estate of pay to play and other interstate money situations.

The one thing is this ravalry of our career union and the volunteers has been on going since the county union was formed. Most of the volunteers are members of career unions from other career depts around our county that were formed many years before.

Most depts the volunteer officers being a another union member in a career dept never thought much of the other union and   treated the county union members badly if they worked in their stations.

Some stations worked with the career crew and made them as much a part of the volunteer dept.

So the county union has had a grudge for many years and found a way to get back at the volunteers by working with the present county exec. 

The fire commission would still have a volunteer presents but there would be career ffs and civlians appointed to the group which would mean a number of volunteers would be dropped from the group. But this is still being reviewed at this time until such time it is law.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on July 22, 2012 at 12:43am

Ashfire,

 

Still not seeing any reasoning for an anti union type of response for what the unions did as you alluded to in your response. You mentioned that you weren't coming down on unions but then mention how union members were involved after the election of the county exec. So again, I'm not seeing anything so far that tarnishes the political action of the unions in this case. You mentioned about an all volly commission which has since changed.......seems to me to be more fair because vollies no longer have the sole say in things.

 

You further mention about a riverly, which thus seems to delve moreso into your response. Why is it bad for the career union to run their political course of action if the vollies have seemed to run their own course for awhile? If this is a county commission, why then weren't there career members on it? Why weren't there civilian members on it? Seems to me that the career depts got sick of a one sided commission and looked to overcome that and obtained it. Seems now there is a better representation of the communities involved, career, volunteer, and even some civilian outsiders. So why is there an issue with the political action of the union?

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Permalink Reply by ashfire on July 22, 2012 at 11:10am

Nothing has changed as yet. This fire commission was formed back in the early 60s to control the tax money issued to the volunteer depts because many depts were not getting the mount of money they needed because of their tax area. 

Charter government did not come until the late 60s and has been growing more since it was formed. This was when the career fire service was formed. Most depts were hiring vol members from other vol depts to be paid ff during the day and most of those that formed the career service were volunteers after the charter government was formed.

I guess most of the mind set by the memberships of the volunteers has a lot to do with the attitude about what has happen in the fire service plus the populous of our county changed over the years from one group to another.

What caused it? Was it the bussing of children from one area to another for racial balance which also cause changes in neighborhoods ? Was it the taxes which forced people to move to areas were taxes were less than what they were paying in our county before the tax cap was voted in.

Was it the spending of tax money for things that the county didn't need by government.

I seen many things in the years after my family move here in the early 60s. Some good and others you can't believe.  

 

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