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FDNY hiring practices called Apartheid like
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2010/01/barrett_39.php
A very interesting article on the NYFD
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Essentially the article only states how bloomberg has refused (along with the fdny) to cooperate. These articles still never explain WHY the tests are discriminatory, only that they have been determined to be so, based on the small percentage of blacks and hispanics department wide.
From this link - http://gothamist.com/2007/05/22/fdny_sued_over.php the following FDNY test question:
While operating at a fire, Capt. Green, the commander of the Ladder Company 999, was sent by Chief Brown to locate the exact location of the fire. The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement. The best way for Capt. Green to write this information in a fire report upon returning to the firehouse was as follows:
A) “The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.”
B) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.”
C) “The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.”
D) “The fire was located in the rear of the basement.”
From this link - http://firelink.monster.com/videos/quizzes/9-train-like-the-fdny-pr...
Other sample questions used in the FDNY Study Guide (OMG...FDNY publishes a STUDY GUIDE TO PREPARE FOR THE TEST????)
From an earlier discussion on this issue, see http://www.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/fdny-ordered-to-devel...
I still think the blame needs to be placed on the educational system in NYC. Even WITH the study guide, those applicants who are reading at (best) an 8th grade level are going to have difficulties with this exam. Not having been pushed to improve their reading and comprehension skills, memorization and critical thinking has severely handicap them.
However, given the variety of functions of a fire department as well as a broad skill set required of individual firefighters the job is no longer one for disenfranchised minorities (irish, italians). It now requires a fair amount of ability in basic educational skills just to keep up with ever changing requirements and training, moreover, what happens when those persons, hired with substantially lower abilities reach the point where they are now testing for advancement? Unless they've managed to actually better their education over the ensuing years, once again discrimination will be called as most of the department's leadership remains white, as those earlier, better applicants remain the better officer candidates.
Clearly it is 'easier' to attack the FDNY as being discriminatory than it is the NYC school system as being a failure. Blaming a monolithic entity such as the FDNY is far simpler than placing the blame where it actually belongs, on NYC schools, parents and the students themselves. FDNY is hiring the best candidates, best being the operative word and something that was never pushed by the schools or parents.
One final thing to consider: The courts have, in essence ruled that blacks and hispanics are intellectually disadvantaged, because they can not pass an exam that whites (at the least, have gone through the exact same school system) can pass. And, importantly, they have not seen fit to fix the system that caused the problem but rather have decreed that employers (FDNY) accept that blacks and hispanics are intellectually disadvantaged and so should be 'accommodated', much like the ADA.
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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When I tested for our county 9-1-1 system I was ranked 22. My company Deputy was 27th and another black guy was 32nd. We were the highest ranked minorities. When I got hired and seen who was hired before me I was flabbergasted. A young lady barely out of high school who didn't know the area as well as me. Another guy who was a member of the fire company of one of the communication chiefs.
Theres hundreds of reason some people get hired and others don't.
Its hard to beleive that no one sees a problem with a department that has 8900 plus firefighters and less then 500 minoriities. With a city 35% white and a department 95% white. Why, as a black person, would I want to apply when I know the chances of me getting on are 195% less then the white guy sitting next to me.
People ask why I always bring this up, because someone has to. Now the 9-1-1 center I worked at has a fair number of minorities. Going from 2 out of 80 in 1990 to 25 out of 95 today.
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Craig,
Until someone can show that equally qualified minority applicants were passed over in favor of white applicants, I'm still going to lean towards the notion that it's the educational system in NYC that is the root cause. That being said, minorities may achieve lower scores in interviews because someone on the oral board may be prejudiced. If records could be reviewed, it would be interesting to see if that were the case or not. Of course, someone making it to the orals has already scored high enough to make the interview. I think the issue is that at the onset of the process, minorities simply don't rank high enough to warrant an interview.
In referring to your situation for the 911 job, you haven't given us any information on what the hiring process was like. Was it examination by application, in which it's all experience/training/education based or; civil service test, which is basic comprehension/reading/math/observation/memory skills or; a job specific test with all other factors weighed in? If it was a good ole' boy process than whomever has final say may very well hire based on personal prejudices and favors.
One other consideration is that for those minorities that do well in school, quite possibly they are encouraged and motivated to go to college. To many minorities that have never had a family member or friend in the fire service it many not even be considered and for families that push and struggle to encourage their children to do well in high school, I suspect it's not because they don't want to see their kids become firemen but rather desire they to go to college and then get a well paying job/career.
In other words, a lot of minorities at the low end that would want to be a fireman simply don't score well enough to get hired, at the high end are minorities that do very well and are pushed to go on to college. It may just be that there is a significant bulge in the white population that did better in high school than most minorities but either didn't do well enough, or have no desire, to go to college. So you're right, there may be hundreds of reasons why some people do or don't get hired. And I agree that discrimination may very well be one of them, but let's not discount all of the other reasons: It all starts with a good, sound, basic education.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I also agree with Jack here Craig.
The notion that such practices are apartheid like are laughable at best. I took the test for the FDNY, I practiced some study books prior to even taking the test, but found the actual test much easier than even the books. I took the test in a high school in Manhattan close to Union Square. As I sat in the classroom assigned I noticed the student work along the walls of the classroom, such work would be that of middle schhol at worst here in WI. Such work was very basic and I had to once again check to ensure I was in a high school setting, I was.
As I said I took the test, but I also took numerous other tests from all over including places like Richmond, VA, Milwaukee, WI, Madison, WI, Peoria, IL, and so forth and really Craig, the FDNY test was by far the easiest one I took. Aside from the depts I mentioned (which highly value diversity) there are so many other depts I also tested for.
In the end Craig, like Jack, such discrimination accusations are juvenile at best. If people can't pass the test, this does show a failure of the teaching system rather than a biased test. Such calls of discrimination remind me of an article an investigative reported wrote in Gary, IN in the early 2000's. He took the test for Gary FD, and like FDNY was deemed biased by minority groups, and his report mentioned much of what Jack and I did, that such tests being in basic math, reading, spelling etc, can't be passed, there is no reason to be on. Perhaps I should also mention said reporter was also Black. Really if one can not pass such a test, I'm sorry, they don't belong in the fire service then, claiming bias on such an easy test is ludacris at best.
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Permalink Reply by Jack O'reilly on
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Craig,
If you understand how FDNY does their hiring, you will see that your below statement is incorrect.
Its hard to beleive that no one sees a problem with a department that has 8900 plus firefighters and less then 500 minoriities. With a city 35% white and a department 95% white. Why, as a black person, would I want to apply when I know the chances of me getting on are 195% less then the white guy sitting next to me.
People ask why I always bring this up, because someone has to
You are not passed over in the FDNY. Unlike other systems that can be manipulated or play politics in picking candidates; FDNY uses civil service hiring that is done in strict rank order. No oral board, no BS, no room for politics because some guy on the board liked you. You take the test, receive a rank # and wait in line. What is refreshing is that you can see who gets hired and compare it to the hiring list. EVERYTHING is published. I have sitting in front of me right now the official FDNY 6019 eligibles list, next to it I have the names of every candidate hired in the first and only class that graduated from it in 2008. Hiring was done in strict rank order.
There are so many misconceptions with FDNY's hiring. Once you understand how it works, your idea of having a lesser chance (195% lesser) becomes invalid. You just need to find out what you are talking about before making these assumptions about this department. It does not bode well for your reputation and perceived judgement as a brother firefighter.
I took the NYPD exam and everyone I know admits it's harder than the fire exam. Yet, NYPD has no problems with minorities. Here's why FDNY is different. NYPD is a revolving door with almost 40,000 cops and cannot fill positions quick enough. They test just about everyday of the week (walkin) at Brooklyn and downtown Manhattan. They will eventually get to you on the list even if your score is only the minimum of 70.
FDNY, on the other hand only tests every 4 yrs. It is much more of a desirable job, hence the lower turnover. You will have 30,000 people taking the test and of that only about 2000 will be hired over the course of a four year list. This means you need a nearly perfect score, UNLIKE PD, or corrections, ect... Unfortunately, as the other poster told you, it is a sad and true fact that minorities have a lesser education in NYC, which is by no means their fault. This means that although many pass the test, when it comes down to it the edge went to the test takers that were perfect or nearly perfect in their scores.... Remember, this is a very easy test, if you dont beleive me google 2043, which was the test given before this one. given that it's easy, there are many perfect scores, who do you think will be at the top of the list? probably the most educated, which unforunately is not black candidates. The past vulcan societies (black ff's fraternal org) president Paul Washington admitted this himself that the lower scores of blacks arent because the test is racial or hard but because they don't have as good an education. Paul washington supports this lawsuit against FDNY, although he ironically admits the test isnt racist. google paul washington, he is currently a black captain of the elite ladder 123 in brooklyn NY. Unfortunatly, he is in support of this bogus lawsuit. Although he knows the test isn't racist he admits he just wants to see more blacks on the job, so he supports the lawsuit anyway, which is really a shame. More african american brothers on the job would be great, however, the test is already too easy as it is Craig. Don't you agree that when it comes to a job as serious as ours, we shouldnt dumb down the requirements even more? The lives of my family in the city and possibly yours depends on the best for the job. No excuses.
Stay safe Brother
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To clarify one point, Not ALL black candidates have lesser education. It is unforuntately however, the general rule (in this city) when it comes to the fire test.
There are many black candidates on the list with perfect or near perfect scores and many were hired in the last class, which btw, was the most diverse in history. the list also was the most diverse. Unfortunately and ironically, none of these future brothers will be hired.....WHY? because of the lawsuit that is trying to do the very opposite, help them!
Read some of the recent articles about the black candidates that have been screwed because of this lawsuit, it will make your blood boil at the very hypocrisy of it all.
I know a couple of these guys, including one from Brooklyn that is an Iraq veteran who got a perfect score on the exam. He's not going to get hired now that this list has been scrapped by the judge and the lawsuit. Very sad indeed.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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So now we're going to compare the FDNY to 1980's South Africa? I propose we let Nelson Mandella take care of it then.
And the answer to the FDNY test question that Jack posted is "C".
Thanks and stay safe!
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Study: Nearly 1 in 4 students fail military entrance exam
http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_16912812?source=rss&ncl...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101221/ap_on_re_us/us_military_exam
Nearly one-fourth of the students who try to join the U.S. Army fail its entrance exam, painting a grim picture of an education system that produces graduates who can't answer basic math, science and reading questions, according to a new study released Tuesday.
The report by The Education Trust found that 23 percent of recent high school graduates don't get the minimum score needed on the enlistment test to join any branch of the military. Questions are often basic, such as: "If 2 plus x equals 4, what is the value of x?"
Recruits must score at least a 31 out of 99 on the first stage of the three-hour test to get into the Army. The Marines, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard recruits need higher scores.
The study shows wide disparities in scores among white and minority students, similar to racial gaps on other standardized tests. Nearly 40 percent of black students and 30 percent of Hispanics don't pass, compared with 16 percent of whites. The average score for blacks is 38 and for Hispanics is 44, compared to whites' average score of 55.
"A lot of people make the charge that in this era of accountability and standardized testing, that we've put too much emphasis on basic skills," Loveless said. "This study really refutes that. We have a lot of kids that graduate from high school who have not mastered basic skills."
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"Recruits must score at least a 31 out of 99 on the first stage of the three-hour test to get into the Army."
So sad that they're lowering the standards. The score to pass was MUCH higher when I enlisted back in the late 80's, and my dumb ass passed!
A couple of years ago, when my 18 year old son took the test for the Army, he needed a 50 to pass, which he achieved. Now that same passsing score has been lowered to 31! I'm not sure what that means for the future of the United States Army, but it can't be good. Any time you lower the standard, you get lower quality people.
Hooah...Go Army!
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...31 our of 99... = 33% A letter grade of D is usually 60% This is abysmal.
Apparently the motto, "An army of one" was in reference to IQ.
Interestingly, there was no mention of racism or bias in the test. Yet the results closely match those of other test results. Perhaps even FDNY's.
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"An army of one"
God I hated that slogan. When I went in it was "Be all you can be."
I guess that in order to keep the numbers up, they've had to lower the standards. IMHO that's just piss poor sad. I realize that the United States has an ALL VOLUNTEER military force, but jeez. Is it really worth lowering the quality of applicants just to keep the numbers up?!
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John,
Really? Peoria, Illinois?
Peoria is the taint of Illinois! (Joliet is the bunghole)
Good luck with the FDNY. If I was much younger and had NO children, I'd try for the FDNY in a heartbeat!
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