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Excessive Force in Arizona? What Would YOU Do?
Bystander video of Glendale EMS run leads to police investigation
GLENDALE, Ariz. (AZFamily) - Glendale firefighters and the man they were called to help were all treated for injuries they suffered during a confrontation at the man's home. In a video of the incident, the firefighters are seen calling the man "dead meat," and making other threats.
News Video
Bystander Video
What are your thoughts – did the firefighters go too far?
How would you and your crew have handled this situation?
How would you explain what happened to the press and citizens?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leland Lavender on
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The guy has a mental disorder and started attacking the captain. A violent person with a mental disorder is attacking me. I'd probably wouldn't allow it. It was unprofessional of him to be cussing at the patient but everythinf else was spot on.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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"everythinf else was spot on"
Including turning the stretcher over? Sorry but this is far from spot on. There are many classes available which teach one how to defuse a situation such as this. This is an example of what NOT to do. I have been in many situations such as this in my career and it can be a job to keep your emotions in check. But, a person with mental issues or an overdose is not in control of their actions. Would it be acceptable to treat someone with a head injury from a car crash, in this manner? How about someone suffering hypoglycemia? These patients can and will exhibit the same symptoms. I don't claim to know Arizona Laws, but I know a couple of statutes in Texas that these firefighters could be charged with. I'm not sure there will be much of a defense they will be able to mount in the civil suit that is sure to follow. They only people who had better be "spot on," are the attorneys.
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Permalink Reply by captnjak on
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This was not handled well. I would expect a higher level of professionalism from the crew. They behaved like they were in a bar fight
.I predict someone's getting fired over this.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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The problem with such videos is that we really do not know all the details. We also don't know what else was really going on outside. Yeah the statements made is too much and is unprofessional, but again we don't know. All we see is the guy on the ground at the point of the video. We don't know how he got to the ground outside or what he was doing....hell he could have been on the cot and took a swing and ended up on the ground.
Yeah, this will end up in many firehouses on training of what to be aware of, what not to say and so forth, and another reminder that expect that there is someone always recording. As far as I'm concerned that should be it. I'm not going to judge these guys based on the video, that is up to the dept to determine if things were handled improperly, not us, and not the general public.
Quite frankly the general public has no idea on much of what we do. I could care less if someone is hypoglycemic, OD or what have you, if they are under the influence of something or sugar out of whack, then there is no damn defusing that is going to take place. I have been there wrestling with a known diabetic who would put up a significant fight and had to be physically held down in order to treat them. After they got their sugar they could be the nicest people. I've been on calls with suspected drugs etc and again you can't talk to such people and there are times people do swing at you and fight. Not to mention the times being spit at and so forth.
Yeah, don't make the statements made here, but IMO, that is really the only thing that stands out. I don't see the hitting that was claimed, I see a person, which I can only assume to be violent, being subdued. We don't know all the details. Maybe PD was requested and couldn't respond or was delayed, but let's remember the guy was also charged with assualt. I'm not jumping to conclusions, but will only say what was said was out of line, but we don't know all the details either.
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Like it or not, the general public will pass judgment and that will be based on the video. There is enough on the video to put a huge target on one firefighter's back. He was the one cursing and threatening people. No one else for the most part. Just him. At the least I see a suspension without pay in his future. The Captain may have some issues explaining his failure to reign that guy in.
I believe I can make a determination on whether it was handled properly or not. I'm not talking about the stuff we didn't see, just what was on the video. There was enough there. The incident was basically over by the time the video started. that patient/perp was no longer a threat in that he was restrained on the ground. Stomping around and screaming at bystanders did nothing to help the situation. I bet the firefighter involved will be embarrassed by his actions once he sees the video.
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Sure the general public will pass judgement, but the point I was making, and the reality, is that this becomes a matter of dept policy and investigation which should not hinge upon public opinion. My city had a similar video recorded incident involving a police officer and claims of excessive force. The investigation, along with other camera shots and so forth cleared the officer despite a public outcry. It was so bad the officer had to have patrols outside his house because of death threats against him and his family for doing his job. That is the problem with such videos and such an immediate judgement that the general public just does not have a clue about. They are passing judgement based upon what they see and they interpret, not the facts of the matter.
So, I do agree that the shouting and the comments made is bad and should not have been made, that again is part of the investigation and up to the dept to look into, what ensues doesn't really matter from our standpoint. The question for depts and crews to look at is how would they be impacted under similar situations.As for what was seen on the video, I disagree with stating there is enough evidence there to say this was handled improperly. I do not see how the cot got on the ground nor the actions leading up to the pt having to be physically subdued. To say the pt is no longer a threat is speculation because we were not there. Just because the pt is subdued doesn't mean he is no longer a threat and should just be let up. I can not see if they are doing soft restraints, or maybe chemical sedation etc. Sorry, I've been in situations with violent pts that even when they were subdued, fought again once they were let up. I see no cops in this situation and the FD should not have to wait to protect themselves to aloow the pd to subdue the person.
Screaming at the bystanders doesn't help matters, but again heat of the moment kind of thing. I definately agree the crews will be embarrassed by this and the actions of one, but that is what they will endure for some time. The general publicdoes not realize the situations we as first responders see on a daily basis, nor do they care to learn, seems the only time they care is in situations like this. So for a dept standpoint this is a situation to learn from and for crews to police themselves more.
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So for a dept standpoint this is a situation to learn from and for crews to police themselves more.
I think that is the best point.
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John Crabbe said:Sure the general public will pass judgement, but the point I was making, and the reality, is that this becomes a matter of dept policy and investigation which should not hinge upon public opinion. My city had a similar video recorded incident involving a police officer and claims of excessive force. The investigation, along with other camera shots and so forth cleared the officer despite a public outcry. It was so bad the officer had to have patrols outside his house because of death threats against him and his family for doing his job. That is the problem with such videos and such an immediate judgement that the general public just does not have a clue about. They are passing judgement based upon what they see and they interpret, not the facts of the matter.
So, I do agree that the shouting and the comments made is bad and should not have been made, that again is part of the investigation and up to the dept to look into, what ensues doesn't really matter from our standpoint. The question for depts and crews to look at is how would they be impacted under similar situations.As for what was seen on the video, I disagree with stating there is enough evidence there to say this was handled improperly. I do not see how the cot got on the ground nor the actions leading up to the pt having to be physically subdued. To say the pt is no longer a threat is speculation because we were not there. Just because the pt is subdued doesn't mean he is no longer a threat and should just be let up. I can not see if they are doing soft restraints, or maybe chemical sedation etc. Sorry, I've been in situations with violent pts that even when they were subdued, fought again once they were let up. I see no cops in this situation and the FD should not have to wait to protect themselves to aloow the pd to subdue the person.
Screaming at the bystanders doesn't help matters, but again heat of the moment kind of thing. I definately agree the crews will be embarrassed by this and the actions of one, but that is what they will endure for some time. The general publicdoes not realize the situations we as first responders see on a daily basis, nor do they care to learn, seems the only time they care is in situations like this. So for a dept standpoint this is a situation to learn from and for crews to police themselves more.
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It is clear to me the patient has been subdued. Could he be a threat if they let him up? Sure, but if he's a threat, why would they let him up? And if he is still a threat, how about helping out with restraining him? Stomping around, making threats and cursing out everyone around is not productive.
The FFN web team asked us if we thought the firefighters went to far. One of them clearly did. It's that simple.
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I don't see it as as simple as you do. How much do you do in the realm of EMS? Do you get as involved as we see here? I'm Seriously asking because I know the FDNY has their own EMS and many other EMS responders and the fire side doesn't get involved as much as many other communities.
I'm speculating on restraints and so forth, I mentioned it because I don't know exactly what is going on in the video, only that I will not sit back and say the guy is no longer a threat because he is subdued. I just do not see what caused the pt to get on the ground, nor having to be subdued by the responders, so I will not speculate that the crew went too far.Regardless of what the web team asked here, the web team is also a media outlet, so the question I would have for the web team is which hat are you wearing here? The one of the media or the one of the fire service? I ask because the bottom line here is that the web teams questions are based purely in speculation without all the facts. The web team is asking to make a judgement call based solely upon the video. IMO, if we, as fire service members, do that, then we are doing a disservice to ourselves, we are pointing fingers rather than looking to learn the lessons and look at ourselves. If we bite on the web teams first question, then we are no better than the general public basing judgement without facts. Is this something that any dept or any FF wants to be up against? Or would you rather have the benefit of all the facts being out there before a conclusion is warranted? For me that is a simple answer.
No doubt the commentary made by the individual is in bad taste, but there is nothing I see criminal about them. It isn't assault, the guys threatens to sue and says he'll own him for all that he has, but so what? I see this as a heat of the moment response, I don't know all the facts, but I highly doubt someone would be saying such comments to someone being cooperative. Stomping around? I don't see it, sure he points to the camera and so forth and tells him to shut it off, but again, it is all about the details we just aren't privy to. I don't know Glendale's policy, because that is what it comes down to. The news clip makes mention from the union that sometimes harsher language is used on calls. Maybe this is the case, if so, then who are we to judge?
So really this shouldn't be about speculation on the personnel involved and so forth, but instead a recognition of every dept out there that there are always people filming or expect it to be. It is up to those depts to look at their own policies out there and to also train on appropriate responses and how to handle such situations. That really should be the take away.
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Most EMS services in NYC are provided by FDNY and most ambulance responses are accompanied by an engine company trained as Certified First Responders. I believe most localities don't even have such a designation. It is a little below EMT level. The engine response time is generally much quicker than the ambulance response time, so engine crews are very much involved with patient care.
You don't know Glendale"s policy? Fine, but do you think there is any chance whatsoever that their policy would allow the behavior seen in the video? There can really only be one answer.
As members of the fire service I believe we have the back round to comment on the video with more clarity and reliability than the general public. You are correct in that there is not enough info to judge what happened before the video started. I am not doing that. I am judging only what I saw. There was a group of six responders present. Whatever happened before the video started happened to all of them. Five of them were doing their jobs as professionals. One was yelling. And cursing. And making threats. Either we find this to be acceptable or we don't.
You brought up criminality. I don't know why because it has nothing to do with the issue. Just more dancing around the issue without really giving an opinion. Either you find that guy's behavior to be acceptable or you don't. Seems as if you're going out of your way to find a way to justify it.
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Do the trucks go on EMS runs too, or just the engines?
As for Glendale's policy, again I don't know what their policy states. If the news clip from the union commentary is correct and that their policy allows for some harsher language to mitigate a situation, then either they have a policy condoning such a situation or they don't. This incident may have the powers at be rethinking either way, and that is my opinion. I brought up the criminal aspect because I don't see anything further that would garner extra scrutinty than what an internal investigation on policy would warrant. If he violated policy then it is up to the dept to take the course, if he didn't then the public's only outcry would be to change said policy, but like I said, I can foresee this incident making changes in Glendale, regardless.
Going back to the video, yeah we really only see one guy acting the fool in the comments. Don't try and misconstrue my stance about this being a departmental issue into condoning the behavior. Quite the contrary. I don't agree with the behavior of the individual, but I will not say what he did was wrong without knowing their dept policy, because quite frankly I don't know. It still is not the general public's nor even ours in the fire service outside of Glendale to make the judgement based on the video. All we have is speculation and talking points to address this within our own depts.
The only thing that we as a fire service can do is look into the mirrors and ask how would "we" handle such a situation. To look at this video and learn from it. What is the take away here? The damage was done for Glendale, this is what they deal with now, for us, we have a chance not to relive it. Rather than worrying about what was done, the question should be how do we handle such incidents in the future? Have you shown and discussed this video with your crew? I have. The take away for me here is not to jump to conclusions based on a snippet of video, but to look at what the video entails and try and prevent a similar occurrence.
Do I find the person's actions acceptable? NO. Yet, I can only speak from my point of view, I can't not speak on behalf of others, nor can I speak on behalf of Glendale. I can only view the actions here as a learning lesson for others and to be more cognizant of being in the public eye. I'm not going to jump to conclusions here because if this were me in a video, I would hope other FFs would look at the whole picture and if they don't see it, to ask the further questions. We, as a fire service, shouldn't be looking to hang other FFs out to dry based upon a personal opinion, or an individual dept policy without knowing the policy of said member's dept. I'm not trying to justify anything, just that I don't feel compelled to burn another FF based off a video clip without knowing all the facts, nor what the policy of said dept is. I can't control what was done here, but I can control similar actions in the future if this happened to us. To me the old military adage of "Praise in public, reprimand in private" holds true.
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