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Empty the city
Just sharing.
Yesterday at work every fire rig in the city was being utilized on 4 seperate incidents. Started off with a jumper from the highest bridge in the city so water rescue was dispacthed (3 pumps, truck, 2 ambo).
About 5 minutes later the fire tones go off at my station for a structure fire. It was an ambo and pump in house with the next due pump now out about 8 minutes, third pump and truck were coming from the west side about 10 minutes out. A Batt chief left the now body recovery for this incident. (truck in the house was OOS due to budget cuts)
Enroute to the fire, dispatch tones out the last remaining pump for a fire alarm sounding in a bowling alley on the far east side of the city....this pump is coming from the far west. Two of our training officers responded to this call just because nothing was left in the city.
Shortly after, or maybe before, an accident with injuries occurs on the bridge where the jumper committed suicide. A pump broke free from the water/ice rescue along with a second ambo.
Water/ice rescue was a recovery, jumper actually got stuck in the ice and had to be broke free. fire alarm at bowling alley was confirmed a false alarm by one of the training captains. Accident was handled, minor injuries. Structure fire was pretty much out on arrival, homeowner used a 5# ABC extinguisher to knock the fire down and thus saved his house. Overhaul done to ensure fire out so incoming rigs were cancelled enroute.
Just felt like sharing, there have been times that the city was down to one rig or so in the city awaiting backfill whatever. This is the first time I can recall where the city was emptied for multiple, seperate, incidents...any of which could have been a nightmare issue had they been more involved.
Oh yeah, GB is 7 stations, 7 pumps, 3 trucks (one only manned if staffing allows) 4 ambos
water rescue, tech rescue, mini pump are cross staffed units
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rusty Mancini on
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Wow, what a day! That's when your thinking whats next, and whose left to handle the next incoming call?
Talk about stretch thin. Lunch break for dispatch probably cut short? For us, it's usually around brush fire season when we have multiple calls.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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We experience similar issues with EMS quite often, even diversions from hospitals, it is just a rarity for the every person assigned to the fire dept working that day (minus the mechanic and secrataries) was being utilized on one scene or another.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel H Skelton on
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in my dept we had a similar incident where we were dealing with a fire alarm with our two engines and rescue when we got toned out for a mutual garage fire in the next town over requesting an engine tanker, so we sent out rescue back for the tanker and sending one of our engines to the out of town call. leaveing one engine to finsh the fire alarm, and about 5 min later we got toned out for a mva with two pi, our engine (3 man cab) cleared and droped one person at the station for our rescue.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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That's the problem when the fire service is expected to provide EMS as the primary provider, but without adequate staffing to staff the suppression companies. BTW I am not 'anti-EMS' either. This is the fault of the bean counters with their 'do more with less' mentality. Maybe cut one of the engines to staff the truck?
Maybe...dare I say the Q word...
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Actually Jeff, there have been different options looked at, even the possibility of brownouts, part of this decision was also the union body. There was a lot of discussion on it and the chief was open about the cuts the mayor wanted. The cuts were going to be made irregardless. There are more than enough calls to justify keeping all the pumps. Even if we did not run EMS as a primary provider we would have still ran into the exact same situation we had.
There would still be an ice rescue/recovery to contend with, there would still be the fire alarm to contend with, there would still be the fire to contend with and there would still be the MVA to contend with. As for staffing we are running with 4 man pumps, 3 man trucks, and 2 man rescues for minimum staffing. Going to a quint wouldn't make a single bit of difference in this case, we would still have the same number of personnel responding. As for the truck, we are keeping fingers crossed for SAFER to beable to put it back in service.
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Take that funding and overhead for the equipment, lisc, insurance and manpower and put it strictly into fire suppression. It`s a win win for all involved.
Actually Ralph,
That is a pretty simple scenario when selling to the bean counters and politicians, but different in the reality of what typically happens. That cost savings rarely gets put back into suppression efforts and when runs decrease, it is easy for the same beancounters to say there is a reason to go to fewer staffing or cut companies.
Now I know there are places who swear by EMS in the fire service and those that don't. While my own personal preference would be the fire side of things, I still like doing the EMS stuff as well. During budget issues, EMS is shown to be an income source rather than a cost, even with insurance, licensure etc issues. I know there are places that work with private EMS for transport but the dept still does EMS. I also like how San Diego has implemented both private and fire based EMS together. So in the end I still see a place for EMS in the fire service, yes there are times it grows on you, but I also see saying having a private take over EMS so money can be spent on suppression as a dream, especially considering this economy.
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Permalink Reply by blair4630 on
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Wow, busy 1/2 hour there for sure. BTW, I thought Green Bay was alot bigger than that. After looking at your station #'s, truck #'s...I looked GB up on wikipedia...I guess I just thought it was alot bigger because you guys have an NFL team.
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Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
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I am very confused on the whole EMS system in our county. We have 2 towns in the northern part of the county that have their own ambulance services but they only provide BLS services so if an ALS call comes in (which are the majority) then the county has to send another ambulance along with these to the same call. It seems to me that these towns could save money by cutting out the EMS and put that money into the fire departments. Their equipment really could be replaced instead of making due with what they have.
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I hear ya. Sometimes you just get so inundated with back to back incidents, a few extra companies wouldn't make the difference. Ya handle it the best you can. As for the Q word, my only point is that with the right type of equipment, you can have the ability to do either/or, maybe having the ability to go to work as another truck if needed, having the aerial available. I KNOW it's a VERY controversial subject. I am not of the belief that having a Q requires double the staff, as you are only going to perform one function or the other, not both simulatneously. But you have either ability, to an extent.
Anyways, with the situations of closing and deactivating companies, lay-off's etc., and in relation to fire department based EMS, I see all this as round two of the growing pains of FD/EMS marriage. For the most part it works. I've been doing it for 30 years now, doing "both jobs" working in a fire department that provides EMS transport.
Back when...I'll say the early 80's, when the fire "war years" began turning peaceful, we began to see the logic that fires were down, so we need to do something else with all these smoke-stained battle-fatigued do nothings. It it was, at least in my parts, a turning point in EMS delivery as well. Volunteer EMS groups were on the decline. Certification was being mandated, membership rolls declined, and response times grew. Somebody figured out that 20 minute responses coupled with 4 to 6 minute death/brain damage without oxygen equated to some bad arithmatic. And so counting all the beans, the solution was to take those no-longer busy every hour firefighters, who were there for the shift anyways, and cross-train 'em, and use 'em to solve the ambulance problem. It's only natural, after all fire trucks and ambulances both have lights and sirens...
And yeah, it did, and does work. Except that stuff still burned. Maybe not all the time, not everyday, not every week even. But the bean keepers told us it was the only way to keep us employed. We'd have to take two off the truck, and maybe run it with half the crew, or in many cases, leave it behind, parked when ever the ambulance was out. And that started to be out more and more often. The war reversed itself. Better codes, fore prevention, arson prosecution and public education helped slow the arson epidemic. But then the ambulance as a taxi epidemic grew. Now we were stripping engines and trucks. Less fires meant deactivating companies, with atrition eliminating positions. Fewer engines, far fewer trucks, less and less riding the one's still in service. 2-person engines, and even 1-person trucks started to become a reality.
Yet, the same tactical positions were still required for fire suppression. But for the bean counters, that was OUR problem. We forced ourselves to work harder, to push ourselves more and more. To double up companies so we could assemble enough firefighters to stretch the big line when needed. Or, in many cases, we left the big line on the engine, and began pulling the 1.75", which was meant for one, and two room jobs, on just about everyhting. We began calling those two-person crews "companies" and soon it became the normal for us. And more often than not, when we got a fire, the ambo was out, providing aid and comfort for the same person who called three times yesterday, with the same damn toothache. Out saving another life, and another bill that will either be written off, or paid by welfare.
Well, we've been working that way ever since, pretty much. Some communities managed to maintain full staffing. Not many, not the majority though. Smaller communities, smaller departments saw the development and growth of the firefighter jack of all trades. Yearly recerts in a variety of specialties, they became the bean counters ultimate dream. Haz mat tech/EMT/extrication specialist/Tech rescue specialist/swift water/ deep water/shallow water...and yet, we STILL were considered a financial burden. A necessary evil, yet still too numerous by the bean folks standards.
Now, round two is here. Closing even more companies, laying off personnel in numbers that we never, ever thought we would see. If we were hard-pressed to do our jobs before, it's gonna take a miracle now. Yet for every fatality, and for every heart attack we suffer beouse of pushing ourselves beyond endurance, and for every inevitible civilian death, the politicians will say it had nothing to do with closing the neighborhood station. The fire chief will be forced to back up such statements, or risk losing job, and pension. And the unions will be accused of turning a tragedy into some kind of personal soap-box issue.The Mayor will tell the citizens they are in no danger, that he has full confidence in his wonderfully trained, and equipped fire department. And that any help needed will be gladly provided by the next town over.
In a time where volunteerism is down, the city council will announce it's plans to lay-off half the fire department and begin recruiting for a new volunteer fire force. And engines will now be left parked, and unstaffed at times when the ambulances are in service. And the words "only if staffing allows" will become aded to almost every page of the revised SOP/SOG manual.
The ability to handle one incident that requires more than investigative effort will be a stretch. Simultaneous runs, and instances such as the one prompting this thread will result in calls being stacked, and perhaps maybe even mitigated be civilians who get tired of waiting for our help to get to them.
One thing we probabaly WON'T see though, is the bean counters installing strobe packages and federal q's on theri pov's and rushing to the aid of the service-starved community.
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Nope Blair,
We are just over 100,000, 7 stations, 7 pumps, 3 trucks, 4 ambos. There is a reason they typically show a barn at commercial break during Packer games, they didn't have to go too far to find one and a typical newscast is pretty much Packers and weather. Although we do have enough to keep us busy.
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Depends upon what is going on with the community. When I interned while going to school, our service ran a BLS service in a county with several different levels. There were several times we had to call for mutual aid from an ALS service, the difference was the community wanted that level of service. For the most part though EMS does generate revenue and can pay for itself and even help offset other costs. Not saying this is always the case, but sometimes it really comes down to what the citizens want.
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One thing we probabaly WON'T see though, is the bean counters installing strobe packages and federal q's on theri pov's and rushing to the aid of the service-starved community
Or even an answer as to why when they are proven wrong.
Jeff, you hit on many of the same things going on and thankfully we still have the staffing we do and with more and more issues on a fireground, it doesn't take long now to have several rigs on scene, only would get worse with less. Thing of it is, we as a service, have always gotten the job done, despite the consistent challenges faced. Yep, we also had the med call which used up some fire rigs and a fire came in. Nice thing is we do have 4 hospitals close by and we don't do interfacility transports, which helps with a quick turnaround time.
I understand the Q debate and pros and cons. I'm personally not a fan, but not anti "Q". We basically do operate on such a concept already on a fireground, it is not uncommon for a pump crew to do truck work, or a truck to find themselves on a line, which is why a pump wasn't shut down. Also it was a difference of 4 personnel vs 3.
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