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deck guns/monitor nozzle/deluge gun
In a discussion "Chief on scene: Working residential fire/civilians trapped" someone mentioned using a deck gun to fight the main body of the fire. Others disagreed because (I think) of the power of the stream that it would only be used in a defensive attack and from what I read, that you can't go back from defensive to offensive attack mode.
What I want to know is what you use this device for, at what gpm & psi.
Also what are your thoughts about switching backward from defensive to offensive?
What I want to know is what you use this device for, at what gpm & psi.
Also what are your thoughts about switching backward from defensive to offensive?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joey "BigShow" De Piano on
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Its a catch 22 cause you never know or as they say no situation is the same but if you use a deck gun or tower master stream to beat the fire back, then in retro spec you are kicking its butt so the obvious thought is hell yeah charge in and kill it , the problem is these master streams deliver such volume and power there are hidden and not so hidden damages that will prevent or kill you from doing that, like complete structure stress floor blowout walls roof so on, so that would stop the offensive from taking place has it been done I am sure should it , as a FAST team member seeing the results of that volume ..NO.
Our guns when used really depends on other units there and fire load blowing out but it can be from 175 to 1K the tower more
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Permalink Reply by Paul on
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We have used the quick water or blitz attack many times. But to address the other part in your question, “with victims trapped” presents another problem. What is the structure and where are the victims. Is it an apartment complex where the Involved unit is burning and other tenants are trapped in theirs. Then use the deck gun. But if you have a residential fire with victims trapped, I will share with you what has been told to me over a cup of coffee at the table. When a master stream, or any stream for that fact is introduced into a fire from the fire side of the building. It sends a raging wall of heat and steam into the opposite side of the attack. Members have been reported being on the other side of that stream due to a lack of communication. From what I have heard some spectacular ass beatings have occurred when the members inside made it out. You are severely decreasing the survivability of someone on the inside of the fire building when you introduce that stream. But the quick water method works great if no one is inside. I have witnessed it plenty of times and can attest to its effectiveness. The only thing that sucks about it is that it takes away some of the fun from an interior attack. If you are using a master stream as a defensive attack, you have basically lost the structure. You can go offensive on the exposures. But the fire building has probably shot if it’s that bad. So sit back enjoy the water carnival.
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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Paul, this only holds true if the fire is contained to one entire room. (no self venting) Look at the photo again and you will see the fire is well involved in the garage. Using a straight bore deck gun will rapidly cool down the fire. Using a deck gun with a fog type nozzle will create a steam bath.
Decreasing the survivability? If the area the victims are in a position where getting a steam bath could decrease the survivability than I fear they are in a NO win situation due to the intense heat in the area.
I truely am lost as to what the major issue is with using a deck gun. LOOK at the burning garage. You honestly don't think that a massive flow of water into the garage would IMPROVE the situation dramatically?
Steam occurs when water (usually small mist or fog pattern) is placed on a fire. You massively decrease the liability of creating steam when a massive quantity of water (in a solid stream) is applied. Try it sometime. Create a campfire in the back yard. Take a garden hose and spray a cone of fog onto the fire. Note the amount of steam created. Now go in the house and grab your largest pan you own. Fill it with water and then dump it on the fire in a rapid fashion. Notice the dramatic effect it has on knockdown. Notice you have some steam yet not half as much as with the fog nozzle from the garden hose?
Now take the theory of steam again. When something is creating steam, it only does so until the area that is superheated comes to a temperature below 212 degrees F. Do you honestly believe that the temperature in a self vented garage couldn't be lowered to a descent temperature in a short period of time with a deck gun flowing massive gpm?
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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It is called a blitz attack. We use our pre-piped water way for the attack. Others will use a BlitzFire 2.5" nozzle. Our driver/operator of the quint will rapidly flow 500gpm on the fire, while one FF is dressing the nearby hydrant and the other FF is stretching a inch and three quarter hand line to the entrance door.
Driver knocks it down, Officer calls for the changeover of attacks and then we quickly get in and chase the fire, find the extension or just mop it up...
So switching backward from DEF to OFF as being a NO/NO is an old school tactic that is no longer the Golden Rule.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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The deck gun or master stream device is only used for "surround and drown" situations..using it with crews inside is a great way to get someone hurt or killed....if you have gone to defensive tactics why would you go back to offensive...seems that you have already made the call that there isn't any reason to try and save it....."You risk a lot to save a lot....you risk little to save little"...That's the way I was taught.....Paul
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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If you have a big body of fire isolated to one part of the structure, a quick hit with a deck pipe while the hand line is getting pulled is called a "Transitional" attack. If the immediate fire area is heavily involved, you aren't going to kill any civilian in the immediate fire area - they're dead. If the structure is intact, you can stop or seriously slow the fire with a deck pipe solid stream for the minute or two it takes to stretch the handline. That is especially true for fires where horizontal obstructions are a problem, or for fires in upper floors of Type V garden apartments.
A minute or two of deck pipe goes a long way. The trick is to shut the deck pipe down prior to making interior entry. And...if you have a big fire contained to one apartment in an unprotected light-wood-frame building, you can use the master stream in the main fire area, then shut it down and protect the search crews in adjacent apartment with hand lines.
It takes practice and coordination, but Transitional attacks can be very effective.
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Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on
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Our deck guns are smooth bore tips and we start them off at about 80 psi. Our aerial master stream is a fog tip and we start it out about 120 psi. We use our master stream devices primarily for exposure protection, defensive operations, or a Blitz attack. A Blitz attack is when we use the devices initially to knock down the bulk of the fire and then we move in for a direct attack with handlines(I believe that this is what you are referring to as switching from Defensive to Offensive). It has proven to be very successful under the right circumstances and with total cooridination of all personnel on scene.
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Brough on
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Our deck gun are stacked straight bore tips. 1". We usually use these at about 100-125psi on a surround and drown situation. Our snorkel has a Fog nozzle on it and we run it at about 125 also.
I personally will only justify using the deck gun if I know we are going to loose the structure anyway, so basicly if we are already loosing it or have lost it. The last time I used it (under our former chief's orders) it burnt down the house. It was an early morning christmas day fire. Slicker than snot on a door knob out side too. Temp was about -10F. There was about 2 ft of snow on the ground from the night before. 2 story ballon contruction.... fire in the upstairs bedroom everyone out. The fire was vented out the front dormers. I was told by our, I stress FORMER, cheif to attack the front dormers with the deck gun. The fire was then forced down the stairs. Next thing I knew we had 2 departments, 3 engines, and a quint pumping water into this home while the owners watched in horror from the front seats of my engine. Later, the wife barraded me with insults and informed me that I was the idiot who burned her house down and on Christmas Day. Honestly, I feel I did too. Telling her I only did what I was told, she blew a gasket. I just stood there and took it, I mean they lost everything, so I didn't have the heart to tell her to get in the truck and shut the hell up. I still blame myself for the loss of that house. So I will not use the deck gun, only as a last resort.
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Permalink Reply by 144Truck on
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Recent job:
2.5 story multiple occupancy with 2 story "wings". Ordinary balloon construction, multiple renovations.
Heavy smoke showing vigorously venting from the eaves and windows on the entire A/B area of the structure.
No Life Safety
1.75 to the front door of the involved unit, back up 2.5 stretched, NO water problems.
Truck to the roof, 1st vent hole over involved "wing". Venting released large volume of heat and smoke of near "Black Fire" quality. 2nd vent hole on larger section on "A" side plus window cleared in attic of same. Truck noticed roof condition deteriorating rapidly over unit of origin, all crews ordered out.
Truck operated master stream (smooth bore) to darken down large volume of fire now present.
After knockdown, master stream shut down, interior operations resumed, building still standing.
Moral: You can switch offensive to defensive and back... You just need to read the scene carefully.
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Entry was denied into the aforementioned wing until integrity/collapse hazard ascertained.
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144Truck,
Nice example, and nice job.
Ben
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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Some of you missed my point and some of you assumed I didn't know what a deck gun was or how they are used. I agree that it can/should be used as a blitz attack on a large fire & can put out a lot of fire. We have 2 mounted deck guns. We also have a couple of portable high volume nozzles or monitor nozzles. When I think of a deluge gun, I am expecting a lot of water.
I wasn't particularly referring to the previous discussion in the senario. I didn't suggest that they be used with search and rescue crews inside.
What I wanted to find out is if you always use them with high volumes of water @ high pressure as in surround and drown situation. You can lower the pressure & the water volume to use in a situation as the one in the original discussion, say on the mass flame in on the garage section of the structure and still not cause major water damage to the part of the house that might be salvageable. Using the stationary nozzle manned by the pump operator allows you to put water on the fire without having 2 men on a hose. A fire flow of even 300gpm (some will adjust to a lower gpm) @ 100 - 150psi is the same as using hand lines. Yet when we use the term "deck gun" we all think of moving a lot of water @ a high pressure and forget that they often have settings as low as 100gpm much lower pressures than 300 or 500 psi. As with most fire equipment, it depends on the manufacturer and/or the type of nozzle.
As I have mentioned before, in our area we do not have hydrants on every corner. Water is sometimes a precious commodity until you get enough mutual aid for a water shuttle. Some FDs choose not to pull the big guns for that reason, they are afraid they won't keep enough supply to meet the demand of a deck gun. One fire chief told me that they had never used their deck gun because there wasn't enough water to supply that thing.
On several occassions we have set up portable tanks behind the apparatus to supply the high volume nozzle and started a water shuttle. We use them for barn fires, junk yards, land fills, dumps, tire fires and grass. Most of the time you do want to put a large volume of water on a big fire and fast. You can also use a deck gun when you can't reach the fire easily. We've also used them on fires with exposures. Use the deck gun on the original building, using less manpower, allowing them to concentrate on the savable structures.
In switching from a defensive attack to offensive the most important factor in my opinion is making sure you really WANT to do that. As someone else mentioned, structural integrity is key because of the danger of collapse. The only time I can think of switching back is in fighting a seperate section of the same fire. It doesn't happen often but is possible.
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