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Concealed Carry and fires
Maybe an odd question, but the other day I was looking at sub-compact pistols and revolvers for concealed carry (yes, I have the necessary training and permit), and the thought crossed my mind... do you think there could be potential problems with concealed carry and working a fire? In theory, your PPE should protect your firearm from thermal exposure just like it does you, but we don't live in that neat little town called Theory.
And the more I think about it, I'm thinking this question more affects the volunteers than full time FF's; a full-time knows when he's on duty, and even if he carries while off-duty, once he gets to the station (or leaves home for the station), he can remove his holster. But for a volunteer, you never know when you're going to get paged. Do you leave the gun on you, slip it out of the holster and leave in your (locked) vehicle, drop it in the station when you grab your gear....
These are the kinds of things I think about on long drives... the "what-ifs" of life.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Yeah and? The fact remains that a private property does have the right to establish rules. Nobody is forcing you to patronize the place right? Same thing with workplace conditions, nobody is saying you have to work there if you refuse to not carry, right?
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Just a small example of the fact that you can not control what happens on any emergency scene for you and other readers;
I agree, that if you need a gun on an EMS or fire scene you shouldnt be there, BUT...Shit happens brother and you or I or anyone here has absolutely no control over what happens when responding to a call. Case in point for my little post here; We had a call one night for a 60 Y/O male severe chest pains, dyspnea, weak, nausea. We rolled with a full crew of 5, 3 EMT's a driver and a helper, this is at 1 in the morning mind you.
When we arrive we find the troopers already on scene...no one told us anything about state troopers or any need for them. Ok, so we go inside to find the patient sitting on his dining room chair, head in his hands, breathing heavy, sweating, troopers standing around him at a distance. I was Captain of the squad at the time and let the other 2 EMT's start treatment. As I looked around the room I saw a broken window, things smashed everywhere, and my helper is trying to get my attention so I look at him. He points down at his feet and I see he is standing on a double edged axe next to another broken window. The patient now starts to stand up and walk around while my crew is trying to ask him questions. The trooper asks what he is doing and he calmly answers "Looking for my gun..." I quickly usher my crew out of the house and let the troopers handle him. We were lucky to have the troopers be there already, because he was a frequent flier for our neighboring squad in the next county, we were called that night because they didnt have a crew for the call but they always have the troopers go with them, and no one told us about that until I questioned the troopers.
In the ambulance the patient told us he was mad at his mother, so I asked if his mother was in the house and if she needed anything before we left, and he said "No, shes dead, she haunts me and nags me every night and I finaly lost it."
A month later, on super bowl sunday around 7:30pm we get called to a house fire, at his address. We roll up with our first due engine, I start to stretch a line because the house is going good, and our pump operator is setting up next to a small garage across the street from the house. When I come out of the fire to change bottles, I see police everywhere, and our pump operator is sitting on the back step of the engine talking to a sherrif and two troopers. Come to find out, the guy set fire to his own house to get rid of his mothers ghost, and was standing inside the garage with a 12 gauge shotgun trying to off himself but he couldnt get the nerve to do it, so he figures if he comes out and threatens one of us firefighters a cop would shoot him. He pointed the gun at our pump operator...The pump operator is a corrections officer on his FT job and normally carries, but that day he didnt have it. If he did, he said he would of used it, if not to scare him off, at least to pop him in the knee cap and get away.
Anything can happen, but I still do not think firefighters should be carrying their weapon into a fire, because of the same reason; anything can happen. I wouldnt want to be the FAST member trying to grab a downed firefighter to set up a harness or something and have the gun discharge and kill one of the other FAST members...
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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The Luby's massacre was a mass murder that took place on October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas.
The "congresswoman' from Texas was not a congresswoman but a State Legislator and was not so until 1996. She is known as the 'anti-gun control lady' and I suspect she ran and won in 1996 based on her surviving the killing.Given that the killer drove his pickup into the restaurant and that her father was the second person killed, it's hard to believe that she would have been in the frame of mind to have done anything to defend herself, her parents or any others. One comment is that she "instinctively reached..." for her gun. A police officer may "instinctively reach" for his gun, but I doubt a chiropractor would.
And I would direct you to this link
4 Wash. State Police Officers Gunned Down
One of four police officers killed in an ambush at a coffee house Sunday fought with the gunman and may have wounded him before the officer died just outside the doorway, a sheriff's spokesman said.
The gunman burst into the coffee house Sunday morning and opened fire on the officers as they sat working on their laptops, killing the three men and one woman in what Troyer described as a targeted ambush.
Four uniformed State Police Officer, in uniform, sitting at a table with their laptops. A Texas Chiropractor having dinner with her parents. Hard to believe that a Chiropractor would have been more successful than four trained LEOs. But then, we all choose to believe that which most closely aligns with our own personal beliefs. Often times, either not knowing, or not caring about the facts.
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Permalink Reply by Blake Mayo on
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When there is civil unrest for any reason or a disaster, the police usually call us in to help. We maybe doing any number of tasks at any given time. it does not hurt to be prepaird. How many times have we been situations when the public became paniced? you can not trust the public to do the right thing.
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Actually I do know many people that are better at shooting then the average police officer. They have to qualify once a year with their service weapon and sometimes a shotgun. I also know many officers that have never drawn their weapons outside of qualifications in their entire career. I'm not supprised the Chiorpractor was more prepared.
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Oh please, enough of the vigilante type of rhetoric. Better at shooting what Blake? Targets? Animals? Under what circumstances Blake? Are they themselves being fired at? Are they themselves being attacked when they are better at shooting than the average police officer? What are the circumstances in which all these better shooters are in? While at it, how many of these better shooters are trained in conflict resolution and so forth?
It gets quite sickening the rhetoric of such a topic. Unless one was truly in a situation and prepared, then all you really have is 20/20 hindsight and speculation. It is so easy to place oneself in the situation when all the details are known, but something completely different when one is not ready and caught off guard.......just like the coffee shop incident as pointed out.
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Its clear to me that you have not been on the working end of the barell or to the side of one. You do not know how you will react. Yes, I have 2 times in my career and I don't want it to happen again. Thank you. You can write all the SOP/SOGs you want and laws as well it won't change people when there is trouble brewing.
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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John: I'm not necessarily in favor of firefighters packing heat on the job, but Blake has made some reasonable points. I certainly didn't perceive any "vigilante type of rhetoric" in his comments. What were you referring to?
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Thank you WestPhilly. and its ok to disagree and talk about it that is alright by me. I would approve of a more civil tone though :)
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Well said my Brother
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Did anyone else catch in " FIREHOUSE" on line today, that Boston FD had to deal with an armed person that was a possible suspect at a fire in their city?
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Nope, I never have had a gun pointed at me and I'm not naive to believe it wouldn't and I'm not advocating more rules or writing SOP/Gs etc. I disagree with your last comments in regards to saying you wouldn't be surprised a "chiropractor was more prepared" in regards to Jack's comments.
Your post struck me as another adocate where police are useless and that having a gun is going to solve everything. I disagree with such a mindset and hence the reasons as to asking you to expand upon your comments in regards to ordinary people being "better shooters". So you may have had a gun pulled on you, OK, but can you realistically account for the reactions of everyone or even a majority of anyone else, especially if they haven't?
Furthermore, the hindsight being 20/20 is typically overlooked in such a situation when details are known. Even from your example you used and the congresswoman or state rep, etc made those comments AFTER the fact, can we really say with certainty they would have reacted as they state? No we can't.
Then there are those who make statements and advocate guns etc and how crime goes down etc, etc yet don't account for the larger picture either. Take a bank robbery scenario and say someone is packing and the place gets robbed, is it really the prudent thing to get in a shootout? That is part of the point with those who consistently advocate guns. As I asked you about what constitutes a "better shooter" seems to allude that that is all police do, yet ask any police officer and using their firearm is typically not a first priority.
Point being is the question came up in regards to carrying and going into a fire. I have yet to see a reason to carry while in a structure fire, I did state the wildland aspect made sense. The issue expanded with Rick's talk about denial of rights, when realistically concealed carry is not a right in the majority of the country. This is just another point that consitently gets easily confused. Lastly, I'm not advocating more rules SOP/Gs etc as you claim, but I am stating that employers can make conditions of employment that does trump the notion of having the right to carry.
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