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Civilians
A recent thread has brought out some different views on an aspect of the fireground. So I thought we could see what is done in different places, and why. What I don’t want is for this thread to degenerate into insults. We do things differently, for different reasons. I’m the curious type, I like to know things.
Civilians helping on the fireground. By civilians I mean anyone other than a recognised firefighter. Now that in itself raises a question. What is a recognised firefighter? In many places in the US it appears to be someone who has attained FF1 and FF2. Here, in my little part of the world – an Australian State about the same size as Kentucky, if that makes it easier for anyone, we do things our way. Volunteers are taken in and put through a part time recruit course which gets them to our most basic FF level – Wildfire Firefighter. All volunteers go through this training first, then more levels can be worked for depending on the fire risk profile of their individual Brigade. (I don’t particularly agree with that last sentence, but I don’t run our Fire Service) We have one Fire Service that controls most of the State – over 1200 Fire Brigades and over 50,000 volunteers. We also have several hundred career firefighters, I won’t go into their training. Any firefighter is allowed onto any fireground, but is only allowed to perform duties for which they have attained the qualification. That is how we recognise a firefighter. How do we recognise a civilian? Anyone else, basically. Juniors aren’t allowed on the fireground. We don’t have the Explorer program.
Now come the ‘what ifs’.
1. We’re short handed (who isn’t at some time?) at a structure fire. A person comes up to the IC and offers to help. Normally, they’ll be told thanks, but no thanks. Perhaps though there’s a need to drag a lot of hose to the nearest hydrant. Should the IC allow the civilian to assist? I know of it happening, but I don’t agree with it. Injuries would cause headaches.
2. There’s a huge wildfire. Should we allow untrained civilians to volunteer their services? We used to do this all the time, as recently as 1983 (a year any Australian firefighter will know about I think). We no longer allow this to happen. A farmer may very well be fighting the fire on his own or a neighbouring property, but that’s a different case. We no longer allow casual volunteers. Methods of fighting fires have changed drastically, and require people trained in those methods. Wildfires are too dangerous to mess around with.
3. There’s a bad MVA. A civilian is first on the scene and starts giving 1st Aid. Fire arrive (we’re usually there first), ambulance close behind (separate service here, but the idea carries on), then police. Should we as Fire (and only 1st Aid trained, not EMT) tell the person to move away? After all, he/she may be higher qualified than we are! Should the Paramedics tell the person to leave, should the Police? OK, chances are that person will be left assisting until the Paramedics say differently – they’re in charge of the scene if there’s no fire.
So now it’s your turn. You don’t have to stick to my cases, they may not fit your operations or experience. It’s the general idea I’m interested in. You should be able to see where I and/or my FRS sit on this sort of thing. Again, please note, no insults, no nastiness, no attacking people. If those sorts of thing happen the thread will close.
Civilians helping on the fireground. By civilians I mean anyone other than a recognised firefighter. Now that in itself raises a question. What is a recognised firefighter? In many places in the US it appears to be someone who has attained FF1 and FF2. Here, in my little part of the world – an Australian State about the same size as Kentucky, if that makes it easier for anyone, we do things our way. Volunteers are taken in and put through a part time recruit course which gets them to our most basic FF level – Wildfire Firefighter. All volunteers go through this training first, then more levels can be worked for depending on the fire risk profile of their individual Brigade. (I don’t particularly agree with that last sentence, but I don’t run our Fire Service) We have one Fire Service that controls most of the State – over 1200 Fire Brigades and over 50,000 volunteers. We also have several hundred career firefighters, I won’t go into their training. Any firefighter is allowed onto any fireground, but is only allowed to perform duties for which they have attained the qualification. That is how we recognise a firefighter. How do we recognise a civilian? Anyone else, basically. Juniors aren’t allowed on the fireground. We don’t have the Explorer program.
Now come the ‘what ifs’.
1. We’re short handed (who isn’t at some time?) at a structure fire. A person comes up to the IC and offers to help. Normally, they’ll be told thanks, but no thanks. Perhaps though there’s a need to drag a lot of hose to the nearest hydrant. Should the IC allow the civilian to assist? I know of it happening, but I don’t agree with it. Injuries would cause headaches.
2. There’s a huge wildfire. Should we allow untrained civilians to volunteer their services? We used to do this all the time, as recently as 1983 (a year any Australian firefighter will know about I think). We no longer allow this to happen. A farmer may very well be fighting the fire on his own or a neighbouring property, but that’s a different case. We no longer allow casual volunteers. Methods of fighting fires have changed drastically, and require people trained in those methods. Wildfires are too dangerous to mess around with.
3. There’s a bad MVA. A civilian is first on the scene and starts giving 1st Aid. Fire arrive (we’re usually there first), ambulance close behind (separate service here, but the idea carries on), then police. Should we as Fire (and only 1st Aid trained, not EMT) tell the person to move away? After all, he/she may be higher qualified than we are! Should the Paramedics tell the person to leave, should the Police? OK, chances are that person will be left assisting until the Paramedics say differently – they’re in charge of the scene if there’s no fire.
So now it’s your turn. You don’t have to stick to my cases, they may not fit your operations or experience. It’s the general idea I’m interested in. You should be able to see where I and/or my FRS sit on this sort of thing. Again, please note, no insults, no nastiness, no attacking people. If those sorts of thing happen the thread will close.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Michael Vito on
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Unfortunately here turning a hoseline on a person can be deemed to be assault and I am aware of cases where firefighters have been charged. To my knowledge none have been convicted.
You must remember that the civilians generally outnumber the firefighters at a scene, they are often recording the event, and are keenly observing all that is happening, even if they don't understand it all.
I agree with you Mark. It happen here before, when one fire brigade stooped down to their level. Ended up using the deck guns at the civilians. The truck sustain heavy damage on windshields and FF's got hurt. More houses continues to burn to the ground because the resources was delayed because of WWWIII. The fire brigade almost got sued by the local barangay (village) gov't.
In the age of cellphone with cameras and youtube. We have to be careful with our actions.
If the situations goes out of control and will endanger my crew. We pull the plug. retreat and regroup. Wait for the SWAT. It is sad - the only losers will be the civilians.
I like what Captain Schlags says on the post topic of bringing guns on the fire scene. "We are the good guys."
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ha ha ha. rent-a-crowd in their pajamas.
Here we call the crowds UZI's (uzisero - in our language for crowds who like to watch).
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Permalink Reply by anne potter on
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Woman at Fire Scene
Becomes Enraged, Charges
After TV Reporter Amy Ohler
GREAT BEND -- A home on the Putnam Hill Road in the town of Champion was destroyed by fire shortly before 1 p.m. Tuesday. The cause of the fire is under investigation.
The owner of farmland across the street from the blaze ordered TV reporters to leave her property. The woman told News 10 reporter Amy Ohler, "If I come back and you're here, you are dead. I mean it."
Seconds later the woman charged Ms. Ohler and knocked over a TV camera and tripod. The woman was escorted away by fire officials. Glenn W. Morrison, the Jefferson County director of fire and emergency management, requested law enforcement assistance at the scene. Click above to view video of the incident.
good reason to keep people away
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I've heard CERT, do you have a course outline about CERT? Our brigade is very interested in this concept. Especially earthquake scenarios when the basic FD resources where overwhelm by such event.
please email me at pasigalliancefire@yahoo.com.ph We appreciate the help. Thanks.
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Permalink Reply by turk182 on
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Sometimes we have had civilians help us. They bring us water,towels,sometimes food,hot chocolate or coffee in the winter.
But that is about the extent of the help we get.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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I was on a tour in Gippsland in 2003. We were in an area for asset protection. The fire spotted out so we were into it - three tankers and a pumper-tanker (the second pumper-tanker sat o a hill and watched...). After we'd stopped the main outbreak, we went closer to the main front and attacked some smaller slop-overs. There were half a dozen private slip-ons there - they do some good work alright, but won't act with us. No coordination, easy for them to get into trouble. If they'd ask us what was wanted, then follow instructions, it would be a help!
Insurance if they get hurt? That's an issue. If they were members of the local Brigade, they could be covered. If not? The local Brigade. When that fire broke out, the Brigades tanker didn't roll. The Captain told us it wouldn't.
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We once had the locals set up a full-blown picnic for us. Sandwiches, cakes, drinks. We were sitting in the area in case the fire broke out. They were happy we were there, we were thankful for the food!
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me too, Turk182 and Tony P. on the lighter side. When fires is extinguish... resident will bring us food and drinks. And lot of thanks you. On the way out back to the main street and highway. We are cheered as if we are movie stars just visited.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Montgomery on
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This interests me because the CFA promotes Guidelines for Operating Private Equipment at Fires http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/business/farms/privateequipment-qanda.htm
This is far superior to anything we have here in New Zealand.
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Thank you so much, got it. This will be a great help. TCSS michael
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(courtesy of APVFBI) a firefighter rest on top of a house while waiting for water refill. Someone passed a softdrink to a Firefighter.
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