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9/11/01
I am just letting all of you know that on the 11th of next month is coming up soon meaning 9/11/01. I will never forget that day and my prayers goes out to those who died on that horific day. Also Firefighter angels watches over them every day and night. I again pray for our troops who are fighting over there every day.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
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For J. McCain, there is one problem American have not been able to solve, racisim, it is incidious in America and alive and well. Oh and health care for all and how to fully staff fire departments and how to put a cooperative government in Afganistan and how to stop the lobbiest from running the governmant and get the drug companies to stop cheating everyone and how to get Jack and Ben to stop the conversation/argument/bickering/last one to post on this subject. So if you know Mr. McCain please call him and tell him there is work to do.
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Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on
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Mate, you're missing the larger point. It isn't al Queada or a couple of terrorists that's the problem. It's the hundreds of Moslems who actively support them, it's the thousands of Moslems who give them money and most importantly it's the millions of Moslems who tacitily agree with them. We'll never win the "hearts and minds" of the small core group of radicals - that's what B-52s are for. What we can do is win the war of idea with the average bloke on the street. Bush understood this
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html
Recognising that we can never kill all the terrorists, we need to win over the guy on the street.
The current crop of idiots (Fox News talking heads, Republicans and cowed Democrats) don't understand or don't care.
From today's news:
The supercharged debate over the proposed center has attracted the attention of a quiet, underground audience -- young Muslims who drift in and out of jihadi chat rooms and frequent radical Islamic sites on the Web. It has become the No. 1 topic of discussion in recent days and proof positive, according to some of the posted messages, that America is indeed at war with Islam.
"This, unfortunately, is playing right into their hands," said Evan F. Kohlmann, who tracks these kinds of websites and chat rooms for Flashpoint Global partners, a New York-based security firm. "Extremists are encouraging all this, with glee.
"It is their sense that by doing this that Americans are going to alienate American Muslims to the point where even relatively moderate Muslims are going to be pushed into joining extremist movements like al-Qaida. They couldn't be happier." [...]
Extremists and radical clerics posted a stream of "I told you so" messages: After years of telling followers that Islam was under attack by the West, the harsh reaction to a simple community center seemed to prove it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Vic, you are missing the point that we're never going to win the hearts and minds of those people, no matter what. You said it yourself, "...its the millions of Muslims that tacitly agree with them."
We need to be able to recognize and defend ourselves from the ones that actively try to hurt us, regardless of what kind of support they get from whomever or wherever.
As for your characterizations, I don't know about Fox News, but I'm pretty sure it's not an issue of either "don't understand" or "don't care". I think it's that they understand that no matter what we do, we're not going to win enough hearts and minds to make the effort worth it.
You also cited a New York Times OPINION EDITORIAL as a news source??? The NYT is not anything like an unbiased source, and an op-ed piece is just someone's opinion.
As for the B-52's, that's so 1965. It's all about the B-2's now.
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And now it's being used as a political football to divide America along factional lines. Insanity.
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Ya got me on the link, Ben. I meant to post this link to an NPR story, which is where the quote I attached also comes from. Well spotted!
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129387963
B-52s are still in use, are cheaper to maintain, and still deliver a hell of a bang. The B2 is a boondoggle with no clear role and costs a bloody fortune to keep in the air.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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I think that went over a few heads Jack... ;-)
I was thinking an afternoon band actually.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I'm sure that when you say "...I spent time defending guarantees freedoms for ALL Americans." you really were referring to everyone, and not just those who agree with you on this issue.
That would be what I'm saying
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That's why I said "I'm sure" and that's why I said "Thank you".
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Sure I can. Nowhere did I say that the sensitivities should always be equal, and in the case of the Okinawa base, the Americdan sensitivities should be predominate, because that base's very existance was paid for in American blood.
And in fact, there are demands from non-American Muslims that all Americans be sensitive to their culture - the excuse that Al Queada and the Taliban use. The fact that anyone who asks for that sensitivity to be a two-way street in the Ground Zero mosque debate is demonized by anyone else shows that those who belittle the request for Ground Zero sensitivity aren't really interested in it being that two-way street.
It's pretty sad that it seems that there seems to be more American blood one one side of the Okinawa base issue than there is sensitivity on the other.
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No, it's reality. I've visited/worked in at least 15 countries (so many I've lost count), and I can tell you that Western Culture = American Culture. America sets the tone for what the world watches on TV, the music we listen to, the clothes we wear, food we eat, etc, etc, etc. You can watch CNN and Fox News almost anywhere in the world. Almost every TV show you watch is being dubbed over in multiple languages. I'd reckon about 75% of the music on my local (Sydney) radio station is American.
What this means is when the US media and one of the two parties make a huge noise like this, the rest of the world, including the Islamic world, sees it. THIS is what is playing into bin Landen's hands. This is what is being used to stir up the masses in Egypt, Pakistan, Palestine, and elsewhere.
Ironically, George W. Bush understood this. He went out of his way to reach out to the Moslem world, and especially to Muslims in America to show the world that hatred and bigotry is not how we roll. When the hell did he become the smart Republican?
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Jack, after all this, you're still using straw men???
"That I won't consider the sensitivity of the issue, because if the people that want to build the building want to build it, it's their prerogative. Moreover, it's their right."
"Now you want me to step into the fray and deny them their constitutional rights?" No, Jack, I don't, and I have never asked you or anyone else to do anything of the sort, so there's your latest in your litany of straw men.
Then you use another bogus generalization, combined with an attack on the 1st Amendment rights of others just because you disagree with them...
"It's just to tea party-ish and barking at town hall meetings to be anything other than a red herring and a wedge issue.?"
First, your complaint that "it's tea party-ish" is Olberman-ish, and not pertinent. The Tea Party folks have the right to their beliefs.
Second, "barking at town hall meetings". Now you're complaining about other Americans exercising their 1st Amendment rights just because you disagree with them??? In a post where you're arguing for rights - rights that I have backed, BTW. That's mega-hypocritical, Jackie-boy.
And Jackie, my lad, here's another of your straw men... "So if they decide to be 'sensitive' that's up to them, but for you to force them to adhere to YOUR own sensitivities, well that just seems a bit too pompous." I'm not forcing them to adhere to my sensitivities, nor am I forcing them to do - or not do - anything else.
Jackie, basically you've spent this entire thread arguing with yourself, because you flatly keep arguing with things I haven't said, but which you made up.
And Jackie, worst of all is this completely false statement "Now you want me to step into the fray and deny them their constitutional rights? You'd rake me over the coals on that one fast enough. "
That one is false on at least two counts. 1) I don't want your or anyone else to deny them their Constitutional rights. 2) Your continued insistance that I want to deny them their rights when all I'm asking for a little sensitivity.
Jack-Jack, you're doing EXACTLY what you're accusing the people on the other side of this issue of doing. And you appear more than a bit too pompous in this.
When you start that "I know what you guys are REALLY thinking" crap, Jack-Jack, you open yourself up for exactly the same accusation from an opposing point of view. I thought I'd spell it out for you, because you apparently haven't figured it out on your own.
"So if they decide to be 'sensitive' that's up to them..." Amazing. I've never said anything different. In fact, that's exactly what I've been saying. Four days of debate later, you finally figured it out...after a few gratuitious logical fallacies and manufactured claims. Outstanding.
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