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What "Qualifies" You To Be A Firefighter?
Absence of certified training, what would qualify you to be a firefighter?
We hear alot about experience, but what should that experience include?
Mere years in the service doesn't automatically qualify you. Many have stood on the peripherals and never really gotten active to the point that they would dress in turnout gear, don SCBAs and initiate an interior attack. "Oh, he can run the pump, so he doesn't have to dress for the fight".
So, the question is: if you do not take state sanctioned firefighter training, what measuring stick do you use to measure competency in your firefighters?
TCSS.
Art
We hear alot about experience, but what should that experience include?
Mere years in the service doesn't automatically qualify you. Many have stood on the peripherals and never really gotten active to the point that they would dress in turnout gear, don SCBAs and initiate an interior attack. "Oh, he can run the pump, so he doesn't have to dress for the fight".
So, the question is: if you do not take state sanctioned firefighter training, what measuring stick do you use to measure competency in your firefighters?
TCSS.
Art
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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From your lips (or fingers) to God's ears, Ben.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Eck on
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I don't mean to be rude. But how committed are your officers realy? If your department is as committed to a culture of competency, (which I do not doubt) why are you not required to meet a minimum level of certified training such as a state level firefighting 1 course? I would have to believe that you do not have a hands on training facility, thus you are not able to conduct many of the skills that would be performed at the firefighter 1 level in most academies. Just a thought to ponder at your next meeting.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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We have the sort of situation that has been alluded to by several posters here. The service I belong to has levels of training that must be passed before a firefighter can do certain tasks. The standards for these levels are National. All the States here follow those standards - implementing them with only minor differences.
Our training requirement is that before you get on a truck to answer a call, you must have completed basic wildfire training. Then you do some structural oriented subjects; then SCBA and search and rescue techniques; etc etc. In my Brigade, you won't get to train with BA until you've been applying yourself to training and 'outside' jobs for a year. Then you do the BA course. Then you have to do further work in hot training. Then you'll be tasked to go 'inside' with a mentor. Probably about 18 months before you get inside.
Does all the book leraning make you 'qualified'? Yes, in the eyes of the Service, it does. It gives you your certification for each level of training. But the bosses also know that there is a lot of practical work being done all the time. Mainly training, because like most places, there seem to be less 'real' jobs these days. I can refer back to Lutan's first comment on this thread - where his career mate had done an internal attack what was it, once in five years? And he's in the major metropolitan area in the State! We just don't seem to get the fires. I'm classed as a 'daytime responder' in my Brigade - I'm available so I turn out more than the others. I've been able to go internal three times in the past year, and only two of those were going house fires. If the work isn't there, you can't do it! And we can't do 'burns' of old houses either, it's almost impossible to get approval these days.
So to go back to the original post? Here it's a case of no certified training, then no firefighting. With a sliding scale of qualifications to duties. But it's a combination of certification and whatever training and jobs you can do, experience in other words, that together make you 'qualified'. But 'qualified' certainly doesn't mean that you know it all - that simply cannot ever happen. We must all continue to learn, all the time.
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Permalink Reply by Allen Wahlstrom on
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3 years...I understand the thought behind it, but the only way you get experienced is by "experience" and learning the rest is vital, but 3 years. Wow.
Scenerio:
Structure fire with children entrapped. Free Burning, but back of house is uninvolved (where children are)
Crew arrives with 3 firefighters who are interior attack team certified, and 1 who has less than 3 years.
What do you do?
Do you not go in for the child?
Do you break the 2 in 2 out rule?
Do you break the 3 year rule and go get the children out safely?
Lots to think about...
TCSS
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Permalink Reply by Reg Mathis on
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Here's another "real life" scenario from my first months as a new recruit. I had only been a volly for about 2 months and had participated in my stations weekly training, but had not completed our basic certification level. I knew basics and what I retained from my f/f training in the military. I could don/operate an SCBA, but was by no means an expert. Page out to a structure fire which is pretty heavily involved on arrival. I'm 5th responder on scene and start helping where I can(humping hose and helping with ventilation, etc.) Luckily by the time this incident occured, there were several veterans on scene, but as I was setting a ladder to take out a window for venting, we got a Mayday from one of the two attack teams inside, our assistant chief had fallen through the floor and the attack teams were calling for a RIT. The IC grabbed me and told me to pack up and go on the RIT, the f/f working with me on ventilation was fully certified so he went in my stead, but what if he had not been there? Even as a non-certified, fairly savvy but still brand new newbie, should I pack up and go RIT, or wait until a more "qualified" member arrives. And since we ARE a small, rural, department, what if we have no idea how far out a "qualified" f/f is? IMO, I would want the newbie to come in and get me...
Comments?
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Option B - break the 2 in 2 out rule. Note 2 to 1910(g) reads: "Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled."
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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[Quote]My forgot if it was my chief or captain that once told me "An exterior guy is just as good as an interior guy".[End of Quote]
So, let me get this straight:
A tourist (exterior guy) who watches a house burn into the basement is just as good as an interior guy (someone who gains entry, blasts a R & C fire for minimal damage)?
Your chief or your captain was a real comedian, huh?
That statement of your's is wrong on infinite levels.
TCSS.
Art
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And there is no problem with the only exception to the 2/2 rule, unless your rescuers need rescued and you have no team ready to go.
It wasn't that long ago that departments were saying "you're RIT" to the newest guys because they would be "just standing around anyway".
Guess it has changed, huh?
As far as who comes in and gets me? As long as they can drag my 170 lbs to good air, I don't care if it's Cafeteria Lady.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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Given your scenario, it's a no brainer.
Fortunately I've never been put in that position, but I raised 6 children, and have 4 grandchildren... Those kids are coming out! I am a huge proponent of safety, 2 in 2 out, and all that, but when it comes to kids lives, you wouldn't be big enough to stop me. Whether it's fire or EMS, a Pit Bull has nothing on me when children are involved.
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So in these circumstances, does "qualified" mean able to breathe in and out repeatedly without f*****g up the sequence?
Or are we talking "Qualified" enough to get coverage by the county's insurance?
Again, IMHO, if you are willing to put in the time, effort, blood, sweat and tears to continue to improve yourself as a firefighter. To continue to do your best to stay up to date on the latest industry info. and without question or complaint, do the grunt work and dirty jobs that you are assigned as a "newb" and continually prove this fact. And if you consistently show up when paged, regardless of whether or not it's the 8th pageout of the evening when the temp is sub-zero, to the same location for ANOTHER false alarm. If you take the abuse(verbal and physical) from the drunk driver you just pulled out of a rollover with a smile. If you don't mind backing up an EMS unit on a pagepout to hold the hand of an old lady who was scared by a thunderstorm or the scammer who just wants a ride to the ER for a cup of coffee and a L'il Debbie cake. If you can do all of these things and a million other things like this that the more "seasoned" veterans here could list.
THAT qualifies you to be a firefighter. All the training and certifications in the world will NOT give you the heart to do this job. That's something you have to bring with you the first day you walk in to volunteer or apply for Full Time.
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Permalink Reply by turk182 on
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When I got in got into the fire service they had a class called "Basic Firemen" and once you had that you were cleared to go into structures the rest you learned from senior members on the job.
In my case I learned from my father and four brothers who took me in and taught me what to do and how and why it is needed.
Over my time in the department I have watched the training requirements increase and to me it is a good thing that it has. But you still have to get the live fire training to show what you actually have learned. I am not sure what certifies anyone to be a firefighter it can very from state to state or even county to county.
The only thing I can say is get as much training as you can mainll to learn but also to cover your butt incase you ever do have to go to court.
Great discussion Art .
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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The two-in, two-out rule isn't enforced in a known rescue situation...IF...you have additional personnel responding who an staff the two-out upon their arrival.
On the other hand, you have departments that claim that they are still in search and rescue mode and don't staff the two out even when the fire is 99% extinguished and they are overhauling.
The fine line you have to walk is to ensure that you don't just go automatically into "rescue" mode whenever you have fire showing. If you have evidence of an occupied building (cars in the driveway, lights on upstairs, people screaming from the upper division windows, etc.) then by all means rescue mode is appropriate without waiting upon backup. If you have a house with fire venting from every window, it's pretty hard to define that one as being an interior attack, much less as rescue mode.
The new National Fire Academy Preparing for Initial Company Operations (PICO) and Strategy and Tactics for Initial Company Operations (STICO) do a pretty good job of stressing cue-based decision making. Those cues should lead us to being in rescue mode when it's appropriate, attacking offensively when appropriate, and staying the hell out of fully flashed over houses and Born Losers that are starting to come apart at the seams when the 1st-due engine rolls in.
Then again, that goes toward training and certifying new officers, not new firefighters, so that's probably a seperate topic.
Have a happy and safe evening, everyone.
Ben
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