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Fire service/EMS ethics . . . .
I really am new to the site, but I am interested to find out what other people's thoughts are on Fire service/EMS ethics. . . .
Let me explain. . .
Currently I am a vol. FF here in MA, district 7. To be a FF in MA we are required to become NFPA FF I &II certified even on vol. departments. So those of us whom have been in EMS/FF service for a while are attending the required schooling.
In our class we have one individual whom has done nothing but try to undermine classmates, the instructors and even the course itself.
I recently had a discussion with her about this and she told me that she doesn't understand the need for any FF to learn basic operations of sprinkler systems, or how alarm sys work etc. She is also upset at the fact that she has been dressed down by a few instructors becuase she is having a hard time keeping up with the class work load and her full time job and she thinks she should be cut slack for it. Furthermore, she also is upset becuase she is having "equipment issues." See she is complaining that the rear brim on her "bucket" is too far back and when we conduct search and rescue drills she can't be on her knees and see forward becuase of her SCBA.
Now aside from the obvious issues this person has, I need to hear any opinions out there. I have told her that I think she is an idiot for thinking everyone is out to get her. She thinks she should be cut some slack becuase she is a woman, and I don't believe that in this profession that is acceptable. She believes that becuase she does not want to be a career FF that there is no reason why she be equally trained as the rest of us are, and she doesn't see any reason why she can't just repspond to a structural tone and hump hose while the rest of us go inside.
Anyone have any ideas on this? Am I the one off base here? Or is this person really difficult? Also, is this a common frame of mind? Have others run into this type of individual on there departments?
Let me explain. . .
Currently I am a vol. FF here in MA, district 7. To be a FF in MA we are required to become NFPA FF I &II certified even on vol. departments. So those of us whom have been in EMS/FF service for a while are attending the required schooling.
In our class we have one individual whom has done nothing but try to undermine classmates, the instructors and even the course itself.
I recently had a discussion with her about this and she told me that she doesn't understand the need for any FF to learn basic operations of sprinkler systems, or how alarm sys work etc. She is also upset at the fact that she has been dressed down by a few instructors becuase she is having a hard time keeping up with the class work load and her full time job and she thinks she should be cut slack for it. Furthermore, she also is upset becuase she is having "equipment issues." See she is complaining that the rear brim on her "bucket" is too far back and when we conduct search and rescue drills she can't be on her knees and see forward becuase of her SCBA.
Now aside from the obvious issues this person has, I need to hear any opinions out there. I have told her that I think she is an idiot for thinking everyone is out to get her. She thinks she should be cut some slack becuase she is a woman, and I don't believe that in this profession that is acceptable. She believes that becuase she does not want to be a career FF that there is no reason why she be equally trained as the rest of us are, and she doesn't see any reason why she can't just repspond to a structural tone and hump hose while the rest of us go inside.
Anyone have any ideas on this? Am I the one off base here? Or is this person really difficult? Also, is this a common frame of mind? Have others run into this type of individual on there departments?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tim on
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HAHA well if you actually met her you wouldn't want her to strech anything of yours lol YUCK!!!
seriously any opinions on this one?
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Well luckily she is not on my department she is from another town, but I may have to go on a mutual aid call and I may have to depend on her when I am inside a building. Personally I dont think people like this should be in our field
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Well I guess there is some in every bunch....
The reason I entitled the discussion about ethics should be clear: in this field u put up and shut up. If you have an equipment issue, you fix it. If you have a training issue, you ask for help. No one is out to get you in this field this truly is a brotherhood, we typically only wish to help each other or at the very least offer advice (unless your siren evidently).
If you read my posting with an open mind to offer advice siren instead of trying to establish that you are the resident female liberal advocate, you would have seen that I specifically said that I wanted to know if I was way off base or right on. Now I realise you feel the need to defend all your rights as a woman and all women out there but I am in no way trying to say that the issues are a result of the fact she is a woman. In fact I contimplated not even mentioning the fact for fear of people losing focus on the point of the discussion.
Now I do understand that everyone has there own opinion and that is what I am interested in. I don't care if you think I am wrong I am curious to just find out why.
I also understand that some might also feel like you are only hearing one side of the story, which is true. But that's also why I included an invite with a copy of my posting to several others in our training class so that if I have left anything out or misrepresented something that hopefully they can set any record straight.
I am not "attacking" this person at all. I am simply looking for an amicable solution as I stated. The things that I have stated were things that were either said to me directly, or to others from this person. It would do me no good to go before a group of peers I do not even know and make up lies to make the story look better or worse. I simply would like to know if others have run into the same personality type and if so how they handled it. I should think it was clear that I did attempt to offer advice to help her since I did try to speak with her.
I guess by the sound of your response siren there are absolutly other individuals out there like this person in my class, so in a way I should thank you for showing me that.
Now is there anyone out there who has something non-gender biased to say.
Please keep in mind if you simply think I am wrong that's fine but instead of acting like a child as some have please, offer up your adult opinion and if possible, your solutions becuase it has become more and more obvious to me that there are me people like this in the world of fire service than I originally thought (thank you again siren).
Listen the fact is if you can do the job that's great I don't care what gender, size, or whatever you are but there are certain people who shoulkd know when to call it quits in my opinion, especially when other peoples lives are in your hands.
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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Let me try this again...
First off, the SCBA, tell her to pull it down around her hips and not up around her waist. One problem solved.
Suggestions on how to handle someone who doesn't sound like they are trying to fit in or wanting to do the work. I have no idea. What about taking her aside after class one night and hearing her out... see what's on her mind. If she truly feels she doesn't need to learn this stuff, maybe refer her to the close calls website and ask her if she would rather be a part of that (not that those calls are all because of lack of training, but lack of training could lead to those calls).
Sounds like a lot of excuses and personally, I'm not one for them. I know what it's like to work full time, school part time, weekend courses, volunteer all the while actually spending time with the child I am raising... complaints, sure sometimes, it IS hard, but prioritizing and proper time management are key.
Lend an olive branch and some help, if she accepts, great, if she doesn't... then you have a real issue. I do have issues with her not thinking she should have to learn it all because she isn't full time. Yeah, because fires tend to know when you aren't fully trained, the take it easy on you... yeah, that's right... they're not as hot, they don't burn as fast and the flames ask their buddy, "Smoke" not to be so thick. Oh, right sorry, that's Hollywood!!
See what you can do to help. You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution, right? Either way, if she's not willing to work and it's too much for her, perhaps she should go back to her desk job (that goes for any man with the same attitude as well).
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Spanner,
Thank you. I wear my pack on my hips but I never thought of suggesting that to her. Good point. As far as taking her off to the side to talk to her, well I did. That's what spurred this convo. I have suggested things to her that I had thought of in an effort to try and help. At first my intention was to help her because after all 3 go in, 3 come out. But she always has excuses as to why she isn't able to keep up. So do you think I should keep trying to help her or she we as a class cut our loses? At what point do we consider this a lost cause?
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That's a decision you will have to make. Let's be honest, there is going to be at least one guy who is going to want her to fail simply because she is a woman, so depending on a group concensus could be hard. these people are fewer and farther between now, but they still exist. Sometimes the person who is hardest on the women is the one who wants her to succeed the most.
That being said, she has to make up your mind. Making up excuses for not being able to keep up is a pretty good indicator... not being able to keep up is a bigger one. If she was willing to work harder to try to keep up instead of making excuses then the offer to help would be coming from me for sure.
My questions to her would be this;
Do you really want to be here? (coupled with) why?
What are you hoping to get out of this?
Those are two questions everyone should be able to answer in a heartbeat, no pause, no excuses, no nothing.
Sounds like you're between a rock and a hard place... you help her and she isn't receptive and doesn't put in the work, you're wasting your own time and energy, you don't help her and you're a schmuck.
I'll be honest, I came across this situation myself. I helped, and helped and helped. I gave her workout suggestions, tips on how to get along, tips on how to stay injury free... excuse after excuse... yes I have pretty much given up. I am part of a small group, I know that. I try to represent it well... don't disrespect the work many of us have done by being a lazy ass and expecting special treatment because you don't pee standing up. I don't buy into it and wouldn't stand for it. if she sticks it out, just remember if you have to rely on her, you damn well better help her get ready! Right?
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Has anyone considered that she may have learning or literacy issues?
This sort of behaviour can often be attributed to these difficulties and it's often a "cover" or a defense mechanism becuase she may not be coping....
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Just re-read your post, is there a differewnt requirement for her training if she humps hose and other stuff without going intereior?
Is tehre a middle ground? (I'm not familiar with the USA system, sorry!)
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Lutan,
She is an insurance sales person during the day so if she has a learning curve she certainly copes with it very well. I am not sure how it is throughout the entire country, but here in MA we follow federal standards of the NFPA which requires all firefighters to be exposed to the same training and meet the same requirements at the basic level.
Let me ask you a question, if you were in a structure and the stuff was getting bad, wouldn't you want the people on the outside supporting you in every aspect from pump operators to RIT teams etc to be fully trained in case you need help? Even at the basic level what if something goes wrong and this person is all thats left outside to come in and get you? To me thats a disturbing thought if your backup teams are not as well trained as you. . . .that would simply mean you are going in a building without proper backup. . . would you do that?
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She is an insurance sales person during the day so if she has a learning curve she certainly copes with it very well.
I own and operate my own emergency management eudcation and training company and I've trained CEO's and other very senior staff members of some organisations that can't write their own name. Her job has nothing to do with it- there may still in fact be an underlying issue, or there may not.
But as others have said, I don't beleive she should be dismissed just yet- we're a brotherhood....
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I find it interesting that this gentleman is being beaten up for having concerns about someone working side by side with him. I have to wonder if this conversation would be different if it was a man who was unwilling to learn, would people want to be so accomodating and so forgiving? I don't mean that to be insulting (honestly, I know it sounds like it... lol), just honest. If I remember correctly there were posts in the past saying people like this should be ousted, never a question as to learning curve, or disabilities, etc, etc. It is human nature to cheer for the underdog and give them an extra chance... but I will never forget Rachael Wilson, God rest her soul. Sometimes all the desire and heart in the world just isn't enough.
Maybe she really just thinks she deserves special treatment because she is a woman, maybe she really isn't cut out for the job and maybe she really just is a liability. And maybe she is using the attitude as a cover and cries all the way home because she wants this so badly and doesn't know how to keep up.
We will never know from these posts, only from working with her.
Maybe this is a legitimate concern, I know I would be pissed if I couldn't count on that one person who was working beside me because he/she wasn't able to hump hose, keep his/her helmet on or didn't want to practice and learn the whys and hows because he/she felt it was redundant.
I don't know what else to say. It always bothers me that someone's training or lack there of could add another name to a monument or to the Secret List emails. Meh, but what do I know?
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