Chevrons on the rear of apparatus, your thoughts?

The 2009 version of NFPA 1901is going to mandate chevrons on the rear of apparatus, like they do in Europe. I think it's a great idea who's time has finally come. I'm sure many FF's and civilian's lives will be saved by this. We need to be visible out there. Some F.D's have been doing this for a while, (see the JPG below). What do you think?

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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on April 26, 2009 at 2:51pm

I'm sure there were firefighters back in the day who refused to wear a bulky SCBA when they first came out. I'm sure they wanted to see "real hard stats" about how much more safe they were.

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Permalink Reply by k hig on April 26, 2009 at 4:26pm

Here is my study,

I got all these pic's from the net. The pics speak louder then any words!

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Permalink Reply by k hig on April 26, 2009 at 4:27pm

Result is they are a total waste of time :) if you want to get a slap of a car.

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Permalink Reply by k hig on April 26, 2009 at 4:36pm

Can you see the apparatus in the middle with out the chevrons, not really I thinks!
Still do total waste of time.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Klaene on April 26, 2009 at 4:56pm

At first it seems like a good idea but I am curious if there is any hard data on their effectiveness. I haven't run across this yet on the roadway so perhaps folks that have experience with them can give me some insight. Here are some issues I have:

1. at first look I see an arrow pointing right down the center of the truck

2. At second glance I see 2 arrows 1 pointing to the left and 1 pointing to the right. On a 2 lane road this could be confusing

3. The state highway dept around here went with these oversize reflective traffic signs (deer crossing etc..) and they ruin my night vision when the high beams hit them at night (just too reflective) do these chevrons have the same problem?

4. looking a the photo provided there is no question the apparatus stands out --great. But do the fire fighters get loss?

I am one of these folks that reduce warning lights at night on our engines to help avoid the "moth to the flame issue" Unfortunately some engines this is hard because of the single master emergency light switch and cops seem to not have a clue and of course often have white rotators or strobes neither are good. Unfortunately I never have luck getting cops to reduce their warning lights. But that is another blog all-together

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Permalink Reply by Kenneth Holley on April 26, 2009 at 5:07pm

The first line in your question says it all. It will be mandated that all apparatus will have them soon weather we like it or not. I think it's a great thing. It makes the rear of your engine highly visible to traffic on your rear. Most all of the departments in my area have the "STAY BACK 500 FEET" sign on thier rear step. The only problem is you have to be 50 feet away to read this sign.

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Permalink Reply by k hig on April 26, 2009 at 5:32pm

Hi Mark

1. The arrow is pointing up, It works by when you approach the back of the apparatus the closer you get the more you want to avoid the centre point causing the driver to pull to either side just like how the the road signs work.

2. I hope the above answers the question.

3. It will stand out on high beams but is not bright enough to blind a driver.

4. No firefighters lost yet, I hope this record will hold. But saying that no matter what is done, accidents will always happen all we can do is reduce the risk factor with training and providing the best gear that is available.

We also have the reduced warning lights at night on our apparatus and it works well.

Stay safe
Higgins.

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Permalink Reply by k hig on April 26, 2009 at 5:43pm

For the record at a RTA or a MVA as it is called in your neck of the woods, our appliance is parked at 45 degree's across the road way in the fend off position to provide protection to the crew. That is why we have reflective patterns on the side of the appliance. I have told you this just encase you ask me, What if a fire-fighter is hit when a driver is avoiding the rear of the appliance.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on April 26, 2009 at 5:50pm

Add an Arrow Stick traffic direction light bar to the rear, and this takes away the chevron confusion issue. See the photos Mick Mayers posted elsewhere in this thread for where they go on the rear of the rigs.

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Permalink Reply by Greenman on April 26, 2009 at 6:16pm

Tom,

The only real way to get data on the effectiveness of chevrons on American Fire apparatus is to install them on a large number of apparatus (i.e. all new rigs and retrofit as many as possible of the older rigs) and compare data from before chevrons were installed to a comparable and significant time period (i.e. five-ten years worth of data) after they were installed.

There is simply no real way to know how they affect Firefighter and Responder safety in the U.S. until this data is available for all regions in the U.S. because as you pointed out, driving laws, enforcement and culture are different in the U.S. than OCONUS. BTW, driving in the U.S. is significantly safer than driving in Asia, particularly Korea. Fire Apparatus here have had chevrons for a long time and there are almost no POV versus Fire Apparatus crashes (yet Koreans think very little of disobeying driving laws Americans treat almost as sacred...Red Lights are more of a suggestion to stop than a requirements, motorists will often drive at speed through the turn lane to go around stopped cars and proceed without stopping through an intersection, etc).

Does it hurt anyone to have chevrons on the rear of the apparatus? No. Does requiring them provide us a means to collect incident data of crashes involving apparatus with chevrons in every region of the U.S.? Yes?

I think the bottom line is that they are shown to work in other areas of the world, both in Europe and the UK where there is a "safer" driving culture and in Asia and South America where there a "somewhat less safe" driving culture than in the U.S., as the doctors' oath says, "do no harm" but we must take action to make working at accident scenes safer for Firefighters and other First Responders, as well as for the victims of the original crash. I cannot see a valid argument for not requiring them at this time.

GM