Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on February 1, 2009 at 7:17pm

Hi Jim,The pest is back.You would care not to use a platform ladder on this job. While I haven't seen the clip you speak of but:We've seen your answers to my solution,how would YOUR agency deal with this scenerio? In the absence of lowering the vehicle,what other methods could be utilized to SAFELY rescue occupants fron this vehicle?For me it would be lower first,if that wasn't possible step two WOULD be the Tower from the entangled side. But I'm ALWAYS up for a brainteaser.I believe sir,the ball's now in your court,hehe.

Permalink Reply by Jim on February 1, 2009 at 9:54pm

OK Tim, I get your point. A EXPERIENCED wrecker operator, especially with fire/rescue expereince is more valuable than platnum. Guess what, I agree. But another thought for you. Commenting people to work in an area with potentually catistropic failure of the vehicle falling on the rescuers is unacceptable. We teach don't put your hand under a load while cribbing. It seems your saying put a rescuer, not just a hand, under the vehicle before it is stabilized. There is an order to these things. 1 -Stabilize the scene. 2- Stabilize the vehicle or machinery. 3- Stabilize the victim. This whole scenario is based on a victim being in the vehicle. Otherwize stage a fire truck for fire or hazmat and turn it over to the wrecker operator and do whatever you want to do. At that point OSHA will say that it is the wrecker operators responcibility to provide for a "safe work site".

Permalink Reply by Jim on February 1, 2009 at 10:12pm

Tim, The purpose for the flatbed is to provide an elevated platform for the rescue team to work from. Not to use as a pickoff.

Permalink Reply by Jim on February 1, 2009 at 10:23pm

Luke, Better add a set of rescue jacks to the list of equipment I sent you as possible equipment for tractor stabilization. By the way they do lift. Did a class a few months ago where we had a bus on it's side on top of a passenger car. Used two to stabilize the rear of the bus and then the two with lift capability (they have a crank and work good), attached to the front of the bus and lifted off the car. jim

Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on February 2, 2009 at 8:11am

Jim,We ARE in substantial agreement:However,how do you SAFELY secure a swinging load? You've already indicated you DO NOT wish to use a FD Tower.Try this idea.It's not ideal but it is how I'd approach this particular job.I would put the tow truck with the boom somewhat pre positioned under the front of the car.Operating from the ditch side I'd extend the boom to contact the car in the trans tunnel(yeah I know this one's FWD) this give you a half azzed two point support.This way the car can't hit the tow truck operator.Rig the RIGHT winch line to the factory anchor point below the right front tire.Once that is secured,repeat on the left(less stabile)side.Then lift.Honestly with what I have for resources outside of using the Tower it's as safe as I can make it. Your thoughts?

Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on February 2, 2009 at 8:15am

Even with my FB(4 car/54" deck height)you'd still need a ladder and how safe is it?Not a bad idea but I'd rather lower it

Permalink Reply by Jim on February 2, 2009 at 11:15am

Thanks for the reply Tim. I did an entry here early in this discussion. It is still on this blog. I started with a blittle bit about using an AC Hotstick, and then suggested the use of a rollback as a platform for rescuers on the roof side and a open top dumpster truck to work from and to connect tiebacks to this dumpster. It also provided a safe place to work from and to secure to to stabilize the vehicle. I was in more detail there. But my biggist point was to think outside the box. I don't want to discourage any veiw point but to support further discussion. I respect your experience and am sure I would be glad to see you roll up in your wrecker. My concern though, is to be sure we get young, developing rescuers to always think on the side of safety and no matter what the victims situation is, the fire / rescuers go home to there families with all there fingers and toes. This is a career, and the longer you keep these folks in the business the more they can do wonderful things for others. I don't believe in putting folks into situations that can be expected to become catistrophic. No hands under a load in rescue and read that smoke at a fire. There are no absolute answers and these senarios make responders think. And that is a very good thing. Jim

Permalink Reply by Jim on February 2, 2009 at 11:23am

I may be wrong here but in the picture the bumper is touching the ground or not more than a couple of feet off it. My purpose for the flatbed (rollback) is to have a platform to work from to take the roof. No ladder needed for that. Then there is access for patient removal. No access through doors would be nessesary hopefully. But there is always Plan B, then C , and................ At a structural collapse one day, I think the victim was removed after Plan J was activated.

Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on February 2, 2009 at 10:30pm

On the same line,I don't find using the FB as a work platform any safer.In fact,as the vehicle in that configuration is not secure(and no way to convienently make it so)aren't your rescuers in more danger than with the load held by a small crane(wrecker)? Hotstick? I think every dept should own one.This scenerio poses several challenges.While it isn't one of a kind,it also isn't your bread and butter job.My OVERALL problem with this whole deal is the inability to properly secure the load.I think if I went with your dumpster idea(rolloff)I'd use a CLOSED top version.Once you backed up to the wheels you would have a secure platform to work from SAFELY and you could tie off to the container as they have several hook points.Giving you that,I can still do it faster(and easier on the FD crews) by getting the vehicle on the ground with the tow truck.Maybe we ought to get a couple poles,some wire and a crane and recreate it.Would certainly soon separate the experienced from the less inclined.

Permalink Reply by Jim on February 3, 2009 at 12:27pm

Tim,
Your absolutely right about it seperating the experienced from not so experienced. This is a great scenario for debate. This is good. As an experienced person who trys to be forward thinking, I am always trying to figure out what has occured and what I would do, when I pass by a situation. This blog is the same way. The more of these examples are used to think through possibilitis and probabilities, the safer, better and faster an operation will go. And I beleive it has to be done in this order. Just to be sure you are understanding my thoughts for the rescue. The roll back would not pull up to the roof to open it until the vehicle has been secured to the dumpster container, or rather having the chains go over the dumpster, creating a high point, and securing (minimum of 3/8' Grade 8 or 10 chains and load binders) to the dumpster vehicle. Basically hanging it off the side of the dumpster vehicle. Also stabilizing the dumpster truck too. The size that I am refering to is the type that is 20 feet long or so and that the end has doors that can open and you could walk into. Good talking with you. Hope we get to meet some day. Hope you will consider the Trench weekend in York Co , Penn. It is a great program that I have taught at since 1994. Usually 7 to 10 open trenchs going at one time. Stuff for the novice to experienced. Take care and stay safe. Jim

Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on February 5, 2009 at 9:02pm

What happened? Everybody give up? Jim and I hash over a couple workable methods and nobody else has a better idea? Come on,somebody's got to have an opposing view. I NEED a challenge. Who's game?

Permalink Reply by Jim on February 6, 2009 at 12:24am

Yes, please someone else speak up. Lets hear more ideas. There are lots of ways to do most of what we do. But just don't forget there are some wrong, deadly ways. The purpose here is to get folks out of the normal boxes and to stretch the ideas. Keep thinking safety, everyone goes home to your families, and we try to create a better standard of life for those we are called to help. Everybody be safe and best wishes. Jim

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