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Old vs New
I am realizing more and more there is a large disconnect between the older "Veteran" members and the newer (0-5, heck 10yr) recruits. As I look around on training night I see two groups. There are the ones (same every week) that take firefight training to heart. They strive to improve and learn and help those around them that might be lacking in certain areas. They train to prepare themselves for the unknown, as many have yet to "feel the heat". The ones that are consistently taking courses as if their life depends on it, Oh wait, it does. Only to look across the hall on Monday night to see another group shooting the ... breeze. Laughing and joking without a care in the world.
Slowly the the enthusiasm starts to diminish and questions arise, "Why don't they train?", "are they laughing at us, because we are breaking a sweat?", “Why do we have to train if they don't?" Oops, almost forgot a group, the ones who show up on meeting night to devour some snacks, crack jokes and offer complaints, but no solutions.
I have often thought of ways to correct the problems. I’ve tried to encourage the veterans to help the newbie’s. Give them some insight to what they may expect. This quickly was shot down as the "latest to learn" group would interject "but that's not how we were taught!" "Its safer to do it this way" or "that's the old way, its changed now".
Soon the bickering escalates and the famous line is spoken.... "We've always done it this way, its always worked, we're NOT changing". And that's that! Suddenly its The Old against the New! The rookies holding fast to training and strategies recently provided by structured lessons, and the elder’s sticking to "I've been in the department longer than you've been alive."
How do we break this internal self-destructive cycle? The disconnect spills into company operations and response. As members are discouraged to learn because in the long run ... everyone is allowed to go to the scene, regardless if they have met NFPA guidelines. (I don't even want to tackle the method of arriving to the incident. We'll leave that for another post)
We need to work TOGETHER and promote learning! Fires have changed, and so has the technology and methods of attack. As safety, early warning devices and prevention education continues to improve, the number of on-the-job learning experiences diminish. Along with it, are the opportunities that once held us together as ONE!
Suggestions welcomed.
Slowly the the enthusiasm starts to diminish and questions arise, "Why don't they train?", "are they laughing at us, because we are breaking a sweat?", “Why do we have to train if they don't?" Oops, almost forgot a group, the ones who show up on meeting night to devour some snacks, crack jokes and offer complaints, but no solutions.
I have often thought of ways to correct the problems. I’ve tried to encourage the veterans to help the newbie’s. Give them some insight to what they may expect. This quickly was shot down as the "latest to learn" group would interject "but that's not how we were taught!" "Its safer to do it this way" or "that's the old way, its changed now".
Soon the bickering escalates and the famous line is spoken.... "We've always done it this way, its always worked, we're NOT changing". And that's that! Suddenly its The Old against the New! The rookies holding fast to training and strategies recently provided by structured lessons, and the elder’s sticking to "I've been in the department longer than you've been alive."
How do we break this internal self-destructive cycle? The disconnect spills into company operations and response. As members are discouraged to learn because in the long run ... everyone is allowed to go to the scene, regardless if they have met NFPA guidelines. (I don't even want to tackle the method of arriving to the incident. We'll leave that for another post)
We need to work TOGETHER and promote learning! Fires have changed, and so has the technology and methods of attack. As safety, early warning devices and prevention education continues to improve, the number of on-the-job learning experiences diminish. Along with it, are the opportunities that once held us together as ONE!
Suggestions welcomed.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Doug VanSlyke on
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Congratulations! It appears obvious that your dedication to the "customer" - the community, is very much embedded in your department. Your ability to connect with the "younger" generation is a gift that not all departments are afforded. Nearly 50 years experience in one individual alone coupled with today's technology is a excellent environment for new recruits.
Please keep up the great work and lend some insight on how other departments can connect and break the generation gap.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Owens on
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Doug,
Just read your post and will have to agree with you. The problem exists everywhere. One way to try to handle the issues are by adopting SOG's, not a save all but a start. Also you could start to add requirments for yearly training for your firefighters, new and seasoned. You can also start to add the requirements to your by-laws. It will not be easy but sooner or later things have to change and it takes someone, maybe you, to get it all started. One solution is to not give the people who don't train any credit.
Good luck. I am with you as I am classsified as a veteren, 24 years, but I have be able to progress with the times.
Jay
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Betz on
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A great post here, with equally great responses. A couple little thoughts I have: if you have rules and SOG's, you can fall upon them to clarify who is "right" (although I'd hate to say it that way). Also, with strong leaders in the station, you might (let's hope) be able to create an atmosphere that recognizes the differences and works through them with some minimal "animosity" on each side. I have always maintained the attitude that it is fine to disagree, and debate a topic, BUT, you have to be able to keep the discussion under control and still be congenial to one another when its done. Sometimes the best it gets is to "agree to disagree".
I have 29 years doing this job, and I find myself siding with the "kids" most of the time, because several of the "old guys" are acting just as described so well by many post's here. I really believe there are methods to solve the problem, but a vital component on both sides needs to be the elimination of the "bull-sh*t" and stick to the facts. When you do that, the preferred answer comes to light more quickly.
Sorry for rambling, just thinkin' out loud.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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We must never be blinded by tradition. Tradition has its place but when it hinders improvement and change for the better, then we have a serious problem.
Also, have you considered changing your training program so as these crusties have to teach a class? Give each of them a topic and a time frame to prepare and let them deliver it- harness their knowledge.
If they don't like change, won't participate, won't encourage others to grow, etc then I'm sorry to say, but it's probably time for them to move on. They're doing nothing to help so what loss is there to the department?
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An old dog can learn new tricks if they want to.
The key words being, "if they want to". Well said Will....
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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In my department, when you have been here 25 years you are a lifetime member. That means that you don't have to go to calls if you can't make it, you don't have to attend meetings or have 36 hrs a year training that is required by our department. There are 3 or 4 lifetime members who have retired. We see them @ the annual holiday dinner & at events or fundraisers.
Our oldest member is nearly 85 yrs old but he gets around better than the two 50 (something) guys do. He is great with anything we need and on a fire scene as scene support. He is good at what he does. When he talks, we all listen. It is called respect and most of us were there when he spent 60 hrs a week or more being a firefighter/officer in our department. He as many of the folks you are probably talking about has earned his due.
When I joined the FD I was in the middle between the OLD farts & the YOUNG guns. I was told once that I would get splinters by riding the fence. I didn't see it that way. I saw good & bad points on both sides of the age issue and went the way I thought was best for our organization. Sometimes I went with the older generation, sometimes I had to support the newer guys.
We actually have more of the younger ones who don't train. They think they already know everything there is to know because they have had basic training. Some of them have gone to Hocking Tech to take the FFI course. So what could they possibly learn? I am still in the middle and #4 on the senority list. The guys who were the young guns, are now in their mid 30s, they have gotten experience. They ask for the opinions of the older members. They too are now in the middle.
My husband who is 57 has been with the dept for 28 yrs. Today he spent the entire day in HAZMAT training. Two weeks ago, I had to work the weekend, they called our house on Saturday morning to see if someone needed to come pick him up. They were having pump operations training. They wanted to make sure he was there because he KNOWS pumps. He doesn't own an operators license anymore but he is the guy that they want to take the new drivers out in the trucks before they certify them to drive on their own. He can't don a pack & make entry but once he gets to the fire scene, more often than not, the engineer will turn the truck over to him. He will stay right there on that pump pannel until the hoses are being broken down.
Effective Dec 31, 2007, every firefighter in the state of Ohio is required to have yearly training to keep their volunteer firefighter certification current. No certification, no fighting fire. Anyone who doesn't meet the requirements will be scene support. THIS will effectively seperate the firefighters from the FD members or as I have heard it called recently the "T-shirt brigade". These are the members who don't train but want to wear the shirts, complain about anything & everything, show up to events (depending on how much work is involved) and anything where the media or food will be involved. They are all over, not just in your department. I believe the state training law will either motivate these guys to BE firefighters or cull them out.
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Permalink Reply by united 289..{Dave} on
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I am a 29 year veteran. I am all for helping the young showing them the ropes. The right way to do things. But in order for me to do so I need to stay up on all current training and methods that is being taught. Has anyone notice hear of late that we are going away from the offensive fire attack and doing more defensive attack? How many of us old dogs remember being taught to make a quick knock down with out air packs? Try that today young pups. You don't dare do that. Point is. This a change of the way it was done to the way it is done now. In order for us to teach us old dogs need to stay abreast of the changes to be sure we are teaching our young right. To continue to make sure that they are doing the way they have been taught.
I have a young man that has completed is 36 hour class. He will make a great fireman. He made a statement to me. "I need you to scare me once so I can respect fire". He has felt the heat. Does he respect it. He doesn't think so for he hasn't been scared yet. I tell all my new firefighters. You can't let the fire scare you, but you need to respect it.
This is all in the training and handing down to the younger guys or gals what we know. They are our future.
Give them respect and they will respect you.
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"You can't let the fire scare you, but you need to respect it."
We think alike. I have said many times that you don't have to be afraid of the fire but you have to respect it. If you lose that respect, you may lose more than you bargain for in the end.
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Permalink Reply by Floyd Aldridge Jr on
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Everybody is right. Everybody needs to get training regardless if your a 2 day wonder or a 50 yr wonder. I have 28 yrs in the FD and still learning!! I don't know everything but I will teach WHO ever wants to learn. And if I dont know I will learn. Hell my brother is a chief and he still ask me if he dont know how to do something. And I ask or learn if I dont!!! Just because you have this and that degree in Fire fighting doesnt mean that you can throw the book at the fire and it will go out. I know that one day at work we were trained in RIT procedures and 4 hrs later we were using them. All work out and we all went home. JUST MY 2 cents
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Permalink Reply by Eric on
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I definately have to say that I am on the "new guy" side of things. I have only been a firefighter for little more than two years now. I have definately seen much of what is being talked about already. I think that there is a riff between "old" and "new" in more aspects than just the training issue. It is very tough to find an even balance in a: what you learn in classes, b: what you learn from your own experience and c: what you learn from the"old-timers" with their experiences. It is my belief that you have to take what you learn from each of those angles and put it to use. I don't think there will ever be a way to change someone who has been doing things the same exact way for a really long time, people get set in their ways. I think that it does become a problem if a chief, or any other "old-timer",actually discourages you from going to "outside training". As many have said on this discussion, the training now is therre for a reason and many aspects of this profession have changed. I do feel the necessity of the older members to discuss their experiences and the ways that they did things "back in the day". I also think that the older members should listen to some of the things that us "younger generation" firefighters are learning in our classes. One thing that I've seen done is where a department will take a firefighter that is recently out of a state class, and have that person run a training session, based on what they have learned. This gives that firefighter a chance to learn how to train the department in whatever they may have just learned, allows the "old-timers" to see what kind of new things they may be missing by not being in these classes and it allows the department to guage whether or not that firefighter actually learned something from that class. I think that everyone should be open to learning every aspect of this profession, through classes and experience, because all of that knowledge combined will be a useful, potentially life saving tool.
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Permalink Reply by Lt. Ballinger on
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We call them 2-20's on our dept.( Been there 2 years or less, but act as if they have 20 or more years of experience.) The officers of my dept and I have been battleing this for years. Our only way of getting through to them is if we go out training and you don't want to participate, you are sent home. One of our Captain's is real picky on how his hosebed is layed because he has had it hang up a couple of times being pulled off. His crew doesn't get it right or someone wants to complain about having to do it, he keeps them out there until 1am practicing it. One or two times of that the rest of the crew tells the person to shut up or participate.
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Permalink Reply by John on
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Here at our Dept. I really haven't seen anything like that, seems most of our troops work well together.
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