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Cadet's or Trained Firefighters ?
I have a question should 16 and 17 year old cadet's be allowed on large grass fire where multiple agency's have been activated ? This is some thing that we are having go on in Torrance County. We have a large active fire going on right now. So question is Cadet's or Trained Firefighter.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Michael DeMasi on
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I can see both sides of this one. When I was 15 I was in the same boat. I was hanging around with my dad at the station. Then I started getting more involved as in the chief was letting me come to scenes. As I got closer to age 18 I started pushing the boundries alittle. The chief was following SOP's and not letting me get to close etc.
In those years before 18 I thought I knew enough to be right on the front lines. I didn't have FF1 but I may as well have. Even for the trained guys something could happen, no matter how much training you have. I can say this, in looking back my chief was 100% right for the way he handled me.
With that said, my feeling is that they can do pretty much everything but be on a hose, drive trucks, or run truck pumps. Things like water supply for tankers, getting equipment for others, changing SCBA tanks are ok. Also, if I was the chief I would probably go as far as letting them get involved with salvage and overhaul.
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Permalink Reply by Greenman on
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Overhaul is a very dangerous operation in any fire event.
I agree there are many jobs which the Cadets/Juniors/Explorers can do on a Fire Scene, but I don't think they should be Operating Pumps, entering the fire/collapse/hot zone for any reason...not even overhaul.
Again, these kids aren't even allowed to operate a Hobart Mixer at their part-time job until they're 18, and those are built to be relatively safe! I don't see how there's justification to put them in a dangerous position such as performing overhaul. Yeah, it might be frustrating for the minors, and for you when they whine about not being allowed to...., but part of being the responsible party is saying "no" when the situation demands it. The are a few LODDs every year which occur during overhaul...so this would be a good "right of passage" after they turn 18.
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Permalink Reply by Rick on
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It all falls down to your states child labor laws and fire training laws. The ages are different in different states as what constitutes being a child. If you follow the law, you should be ok. "Small" grass fires as well as "overhaul" can be extremely dangerous so take care out there!!!
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Permalink Reply by Aaron Jones on
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these jr programs are awesome (under 18) they are made to teach kids what they need to know for when they turn 18 but without question they are NOT to be on the front line. I was in one of these programs when i was 17. We would train with everybody else but when the tones went out we went to the station and either stayed there or if there was room in the truck we would go and assist with rehab. If it was a mutal aid situation there is no question "Stay at the station" it is to much of a liability for the department. The department i am with now jr ff can train but when the page drops they can go to the station but not on the truck at all.
Start up another discussion what should be the minimum age for a Jr. Firefighter. In our departmet it is 14-18 which i think is way to young. I think it should be at least 15 if not 16... What do yall think
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Absolutely not.
Cadets have no place on any operational ground. The liability and risk are far too large to warrant it.
Train, train, train, learn, learn, learn. Be a sponge and absorb as much as possible- but not on the ground...
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I think they have as much right to be at the foreground as the 50 "Lookie-loos" who gather at the fire line tape. There is a place for them and I think Helping with rehab is the perfect place for Juniors. If it's legal in your state, allowing the Junior FFs to help with rehab does a couple of things.
First, it allows them to Be Involved! This is what most teens want when they become Juniors FFs. They're part of the team and building not only self-confidence, but confidence in their new Big Brothers and Sisters, AND earning the confidence of the adult FFs at the same time. The FFs see which Juniors show up to help with rehab, and which don't...
Second, it teaches them that they are a part of a team, and that each member of the team has a role to play and Rehab is just as important as entry or ventilation. Each phase of the job moves the team toward completion...
Another thing allowing Juniors to help with Rehab does is it allows the Lookie-loos to see Juniors in action and that helps with community relations and let's citizens see that the teens who are Junior FFs are upstanding members of their community.
Being volunteers and not performing hazardous duties, I don't think child labor laws would affect the Juniors' ability to help out on the fire ground with rehab.
Training and learning are essential. But nothing will convince that 16-year old to pursue a career in Emergency Services like that summer day they "helped out" on the ____(fill in the blank)____ Fire.
Teens need real responsibility and they need to be part of the team, but they also need to do it at a safe distance.
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Thank you Greenman! You hit the nail right on the head. It not only does what you say but it also keeps teens out of trouble and off drugs. It also teaches them respect, which lord know there is a lack of these day by teens.
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Permalink Reply by Donny on
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In my Department we have two types of cadets. One is a jr. ff which in between 13 to 16 during this time they help clean trucks and up around the department it may sound bad but at least they can learn stuff that way and they can hang around and listen to the real firefighters. The second type is the ones how are 16 to 18 years old and theses are the ones that this discusion was started for. The two boys are 16 and 17 years of age the 16 year olds dad is the fire chief and thinks scenes forestry is not paying us he can send his son to fight wildland or grass fires and that is ok. The 17 year old kid hangs out with the 16 year old and follows what the 16 year old wants. The 17 lives with the chief which the chief thinks he can do the same thing as his son. W hich like i said is againist U.S. and State Forestry rules.
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That is true and yes respect needs to come back to some of the teens out there.
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Permalink Reply by Troy Hieb on
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Just want to clarify and make a couple points here. 1. Andee was in her own seat, 2. that POS. tender did not come equiped with seat belts, 3. since when did responding to a scene become an elevated risk?, because that is what both of these explorers were doing, 4. if it werent for stupidity from department members who are supposed to know their stuff, most accidents could be avoided. This stupidity is often a side effect of "tunnel vision", it seems like their isn't a dumbass around that doesn't get this anymore. This causes lots of problems on fire scenes, believe me I've scene it, can't engage the pump, truck keeps dying, charging the wrong hoseline, not flushing the hydrant, forgetting your helmet, ect. For example, Ron Caillier was an alcoholic and was well known as one, but do you think that he ever thought about not driving that tanker, and do you think that it ever crossed anyone else's mind that night that maybe he shouldn't be driving. Obviously not. One other thing that I would like to say is that as Chief of the Newcastle Fire Dept. Explorers for the past three years, I am more qualified than probably half of the department members (this is known because I, along with my brother train probationary firemen, put on public education classes, and help with other fire dept. classes), and can phisically pass the requirements (because there really is none, and if there were i would, and I wouldn't have a heart attack like the half of the dept. that might have more knowledge than me). Many guys believe that experience makes the best, this may be, but I have two thing to say about it, first, you have to get the experience for it to help you, and secondly if you're doin stuff wrong you're experience doesn't mean jack. I agree that there is definatly better explorers than others and that there should be a restraint on what they should be able to do, but there needs to be some sort of testing or steps that can be taken to get the cadets that want to do more, and can do more, a more fire oriented job than parking cars in a high school parking lot.
As far as operating a pump goes, I can probably teach 75% of our fire dept. an also 75% of the people on this page something about them. I have been on two fully involved structure fires where they driver has killed the truck several times because they did not shift to neutral to engage the pump. Once again, back to the tunnel vision, not that that person is an idiot, even though they may be, but they just can't seem to slow down and think about what they are doing. It takes a select firemen to have sence and composure, a person either has or doesn't have this quality, so if this can be seen in a cadet, they should be allowed to do more.
And as a final little add in note, as an explorer I do believe that there is a little bit of glory in these two accidents, a lot more glory than over dosing on drugs, or alcohol poisoning, or some other dumb teenage action. As a good friend of Andee, I know she wanted to help people and loved to fight fire, she was a rare girl to be as advanced as she was in the firefighting field. These two cadets didn't die because they were undertrained, inexperienced, weak, or because they were put on the front lines, they died because someone else wasn't thinking. The problem lies not in the explorer's minds, but in the minds of their leaders, if everyone would slow down and use a little common sence, there would be no problem.
As far as liablility goes, that is on a whole other boat that I won't get into. Therefore, my entry is pretaining to actions aside from liability.
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Permalink Reply by Fire Capt. 1304 on
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It's just too dangerous to have JR's on the frontline near the fire. Well trained FF's get burned all the time on grass fires so JR's could get hurt just as easily. I do agree that there are other jobs they could be doing in the rear. I know I wouldnt want my name associated with a kid getting burned on the fireline.
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Permalink Reply by turk182 on
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In Pennsylvania the labor laws do not permit anyone under 18 on the front lines of a fire wether interior of field fires they are religated to running equipment and rolling hose.
In my opinion they should not be on the front lines of a grass fire. Their careers are just starting and they should not be in a hurry there will be plenty of time later to battle brush fires.
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