The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Why do we buy apparatus the way we do
I've been in the fire business since 1978. Was on 2 engine committees and getting ready to order a third and I still don't understand why the fire service does what we do. By that I mean ordering engines like each fire company is so much different then the other.
Trucks are starting to cost upwards of 1 Million, Engines half a million. Why, because everyone wants something different.
Our company has two of the best designed engines we ever had. One is a engine the other a squrt. We're relacing both so instead of saying give me this, you already have the plans we like the equipment and nothing has changed. But why not..because the people on THIS committee didn't design the engines and THEY can do it better. We were told by the Peirce dealer that it would cost $40G to take the boom off the squrt and redo the box and refrub the rest of the engine. But 200G to leave the boom on and refrub it. WHA.....HUH....Come on....Oh of course if you left the boom on there wouldn't be a need for a second engine.
But if I was a manufacturer I would offer very little options. One box for engines with choice of tank and pump size. Maybe seating choice. How much would something like this cost. A whole lot less then what we pay now. Let's say the basic engine with 750 tank and 1250 pump 6 man cab cost $200,000. Why because they can build more with the same parts and components for less. you save money by building and buying in bulk.
We need to change the way we do business. With the economy the way it is I'm sure our tax payers will start to look more closely at our spending and asking us to cut back. Of course will this happen, no because dealers what to make the sale, and fire departments are on the slowest to make radical changes.
Trucks are starting to cost upwards of 1 Million, Engines half a million. Why, because everyone wants something different.
Our company has two of the best designed engines we ever had. One is a engine the other a squrt. We're relacing both so instead of saying give me this, you already have the plans we like the equipment and nothing has changed. But why not..because the people on THIS committee didn't design the engines and THEY can do it better. We were told by the Peirce dealer that it would cost $40G to take the boom off the squrt and redo the box and refrub the rest of the engine. But 200G to leave the boom on and refrub it. WHA.....HUH....Come on....Oh of course if you left the boom on there wouldn't be a need for a second engine.
But if I was a manufacturer I would offer very little options. One box for engines with choice of tank and pump size. Maybe seating choice. How much would something like this cost. A whole lot less then what we pay now. Let's say the basic engine with 750 tank and 1250 pump 6 man cab cost $200,000. Why because they can build more with the same parts and components for less. you save money by building and buying in bulk.
We need to change the way we do business. With the economy the way it is I'm sure our tax payers will start to look more closely at our spending and asking us to cut back. Of course will this happen, no because dealers what to make the sale, and fire departments are on the slowest to make radical changes.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on
-
Fire Apparatus cost so much because of NFPA blah blah blah requirements, 2009 diesel standards, computerized this and that and just adding more bells and whistles than you'll ever need. I wish you could buy a simple engine, you know a pump with wheels and a couple of compartments for equipment, and some hose, but you can't; unless it's 25 years old.
-
Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
-
One way you might save is to piggy-back an order with another dept. Yes, you do not get your engine designed by you. But instead of paying $500K for your 1 engine, you may pay $400K to be one of 40 being bought. It's something that has worked well around these parts. I''m not sure of the exact savings and you need a fairly large dept nearby. But, the more engines being bought, the more the volume discount.
-
Permalink Reply by Fuzzy Carr on
-
I do agree to a point with this reply. Yes cost is part NFPA but most of it is from bells & whistles. I have been in the Fire service for 30 years and I have never seen bells & whistles put out fires.
-
Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
-
I do agree that bells and whistles don't put out fires, but I think the bells and whistles DO assist in department pride and morale. If you retain and or obtain firefighters due to having the best of the best in apparatus (bells and whistles included) than I would have to say it's worth the extra money.
I do think that the bells and whistles need to be in moderation to not completely go over the top of the budget. Having things like ladder hoists, (mechanical) through the tank ladders/pike poles, (save your back a ton) a state of the art warning light/arrow stick/siren package, and even a differant paint scheme all add up, but again can be worth it.
-
-
I would have to disagree on this because the cost of morale should not be in the cost of your apparatus.
-
Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
-
If they are selling it to the military or the fire service, it is whatever the market will bear. Try specking a truck and then shop it around. I will guarantee that pricing will be within two grand of each other, because the manufacturers are paying pretty much the same price for chassis', poly tanks, pumps, aluminum, etc. Where you see a savings is in the number of build hours. Modular construction will be cheaper than custom. That's why a few manufacturers can get low price every time.
Bells and whistles? I know a bell costs about $1200 and "whistles" are required by NFPA, in some cases. Fire trucks cost alot because of the various regulations.
I realize that a half million dollars sounds like a lot of money, but the manufacturer isn't getting filthy rich off of the deal. Note that I said "filthy rich".
Ask yourselves: how many apparatus builders have either gone out of business, bankrupt or bought out by someone else in the last 10 years?
How many new builders have we seen? That should explain some of it.
TCSS.
Art
-
-
I don't think it is in it's entire nature, but I do think having nice apparatus makes it easier to stay upbeat and posative. It doesn't rest souly on morale but it is a building block. Our last apparatus purchase was a Pierce Custom Special Hazards. This truck was designed to eliminate dead space and came out a beauty. The department pride was amazing and apparent when it was backed into the station. There were things that cost extra on the truck that helped to "complete" the look and function. Without them I am sure we would have loved it all the same, but with them I can definately see the reaction with my co-firefighters and myself.
-
Permalink Reply by Bill Muehsam on
-
Apparatus design should be, and for the most part is, based on the needs of the department, for the district/jurisdiction they service. Everyone's needs are different. Some need larger tank (1000 gal or more) capacity due to lack of hydrants in the district. Some try to consolidate trucks, by designing "rescue style" bodies on their Engine Companies, thereby eliminating the need for a Squad or a Rescue Unit.
NFPA has added alot of requirements (adding cost) to new apparatus. Some I agree with, others I don't. If Departments want to design an Engine that costs half-a-MIL $, and they can pay for it. Then good for them.
Design and order what you can afford, and what best fits the needs of the Department and the district.
-
-
I'll go with that, but apparatus does not have to cost that much to be nice. All it has to do is work well. If it works well then they seem to want to take care of it better (morale)
-
-
I do agree about the tanker part and maybe the squads/Rescues but Engs. should be standard.
-
-
OK, what's the "standard" for engine companies and who decides what that "standard is???? What size pump, tank.....foam or no foam......CAFS or no CAFS......Commercial or custom chassis.......LDH or not......it doesn't work that way. Everyone's needs are different. My Engine Company is 1250/750 with 1800' of 5" hose. Does that configuration work for everyone? I doubt it.
-
-
Your right there but how about Townships that have 12 different departments in it. And they all buy different apparatus.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
