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Is it the gear, or lack of training ???
There has been some talk that the better gear we have now is hurting and killing FF by letting them go deeper and stay longer in the fire. There was an article in the last Fire/Rescue magazine i just recieved. It stated that it may be a lack of training. I have a tendacy to believe lack of training. We all know that things are made from differant materials than 10-20 yrs ago. It burns faster and hotter and gives off alot more deadlier gas. Things like this change the tactics that some have used years ago. I believe that we as FF need to stay up on our training as times change. Like the art of reading smoke. Knowing whats burning....I believe this may have more to do with the safety than the better equipment we have. What is all your take on this???
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Kimberly A Bownas on
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I just took a state class called Courage to be Safe. It is all about how we are killing ourselves because we want to be right up close to the fire, when we have the ability to put the fire out without being that close. There were other things also like no seat belts, driving like we don't have to obey the traffic laws and other information which was very informative. But, what you are asking is in my opinion lack of training and not the equipment that we have to protect us. For some reason firefighters want to be right on top of the fire and that is when we get into trouble and either get seriously hurt or killed. Why do we do that when we have a hose that can shoot water a good distance and can put the fire out. Training is a big issue and it is either not done enough or not done in a safe manner. Training is important and it is important to be safe. Train hard and train safe. This was a good question Bull, it will be interesting to see what the others think..... Be safe.....
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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Good Question, The gear has become far better then what my Dad wore when he was on. Geez, I have pics of him opening roof's with a dungaree coat, take it one step further....I got pics of him coming out of building wearing that coat!! That was the norm back in the 70's and early 80's. Todays gear according to the NFPA is far safer, but is it? You tube is full of videos of people being in places that they shouldnt be, is that because of lack of training?? Might be, could it be because the gear allowed them to get there easily...Might be. I have gotten my nuts busted on this forum because my opinions on the hood debate. I have seen with m on eyes what hoods do, and they DO hinder your feeling.
Training can only get you so far, when the training ends you need to rely on your experience. I will say that sitting thru classes listening to a dude read word for word the ifsta manual can only get you to the front door. It is nothing more then the basic's, an introduction to firefighting.
So to answer your question. The gear lets you go in to far to the point of getting injuried, and with the lack of fires to learn and gain experience we get inexperienced people getting caught and hurt. Let the debate begin!
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Permalink Reply by Damon Dyer on
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It is both , trust your gear but at the same time know its limits . Training shows you the limits when you excede those limits you should back up and regroup . Know your escape route , training again teaches you what you need to know . Train as you fight , full gear , get used to doing something different and it could get you killed . Hmmm looks like it is going to be training . But at the same time some of the lodds have been officers and they should have the training that was needed . Did they have all their ppe in place ? Did they excede the limits of the ppe or themselves ?
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Permalink Reply by Kenneth Holley on
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Well said Damon. I would have to agree with everything that you wrote. But you would have to include a incident commander and safety officer who know the limits of both the gear and their people and their own unique fire situation. We all know that no two fires are the same and each has it's own life. It's usually the small fire that gets you in trouble.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
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My opinion only. In looking at the stats for 2007 LODD, at most PPEs could only be a factor in 15% of the deaths. In actuality, this is probably more likely to be around 6% if you remove the lost/disoriented from the equations. That's 7 out of the 118 LODDs that year. Whether or not the PPEs were a factor in those 7, I do not know. I'd like to think that the proper use of PPEs has saved more than the 7 who may have died as a result of better science.
I do think it is more of a training issue than an equipment one.
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Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on
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I have to agree with Dave.
"The lack of fires to learn and gain experience we get inexperienced people getting caught and hurt. " In my opinion I think that is a major factor to firefighters getting hurt. I wish I had the time to run the stats like Jay did below to include department size, number of structure fires per year and years of experience in LODD.
You can only gain so much experience in a building (burn building) that can not burn.
Note: A firefighter can do everything right and still get killed, even Billy Goldfeder will agree to that. The goal should be to reduce injury as much as possible. Real experience is still the best teacher, and trust your gut. If something doesn't feel right it probally isn't.
Sidenote- David Dodson's "The Art of Reading Smoke" is an excellent class. I recommend everyone take it and or study it.
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Permalink Reply by Joey "BigShow" De Piano on
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I have to disagree a bit that its more the gear for one reason, While I was a Lt. and training new cadets (probies whatever) we were in a live burn room doing flash over (natural wood burning to cieling with plywood over it for roll effect)..My job during the excercise was to stand by the evac door should any of the probies need to bailout , the problem here was that I was standing cause there was no place else to be that I could grab them and get out, about 6 ft. from the fire stand as I was watching the probies for the sign to get them out I had no idea my turnouts srm and shoulder nearly caught on fire , if it were not for the other trainers by the vent window watching in and reading temp. i would have gotten a bad burn as I got out of the building my sleeve and shoulder were smoking and my turnouts were discolored as if left in the sun with a nice yellow /white starburst where the heat was most intense. We can train any one to know as much as they want to learn but in the stress of the moment with adrenalin pumping, the things that use to warn us we are in trouble are not there as the gear becomes more and more resistant and denies us the feel we use to feel. And for the record we hit 1100 in the room that night and I was standing as if it was nothing so yeah the gears playing into it.
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Permalink Reply by Andy Marsh on
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Boy, I guess no matter what dept. you're in or where you're at, as a ff, this discussion inevitably, comes up. In the grand scheme of things, that is a good thing. It will increase our awareness, and our focus, and keep it in the front of our thoughts as far as firefighter safety goes. I believe training is part of it. But what I believe it comes down to is the attitudes, behaviors, and learning styles of all of the generations in the fire service. Currently, we have to reach out to 5 styles of learning behaviors in the fire service. Some understand that in order to reach an answer, you need to understand the equation, and will work towards that end. Some will figure out better ways to get to the answer, and some will figure out better answers for the fire service as witnessed through our turnout gear, pass alarms, tics, and other technological equipment. Some just want to know the answer without doing the necessary work. In recent training that I have participated in as a student or as an instructor, I have witnessed the lack of attention in experienced ffs, because they did that, done that and received a t-shirt, and then there are others, the inexperienced ones who don't want to participate because the work is too hard, it is repetitious, and they don't fully understand why it really applies to them. I have stopped independent conversations, horseplay, and other b.s which I believed interrupted classes/drills. So, I guess our challenge really is to figure out how better to reach all of them at once. (That's what I'm told anyway) Maybe, deal with the separate groups at different times. (Wouldn't it be nice to have that time?)I wish I could tell you how to do that. Unfortunately, when we have a lack of attention and discipline on the training grounds, we will see a lack of attention and discipline on our firegrounds. In general, our fires have decreased. As a result, our experience with fire has decreased as well. Our training and whatever experience we have is what we have to fall back on. As far as line of duty injuries and deaths go, the word complacency comes to mind. Heart attacks and strokes related to physical stresses, physical ability, physical fitness, mvcs related to speed, lack of seatbelt use, backing over or into us, are what plague us the most. We just don't think that it will happen to us. There is just not enough "buy in" to the initiatives and programs that are currently in place. Until that "buy in"completely happens, unfortunately we will attend 100 or more ff lodd funeral services. I apologize for the length, but this is how I view it. Good post. Good discussions. Good input by all. Stay Smart and Stay Safe! I wish you all the very best.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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It's been my opinion for some time that members go through Firefighter 1 and are then expected to be interior certified, without much actual or "real" fire experience.
Tunnel vision, a feeling of invincibility, adrenaline, lack of live fire experience and equipment that lets us get into trouble easily, all contribute.
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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I know it seems more of an old school, new school debate, especially when it comes to wearing a hood. I was trained with one. Alot of the older ones never wore one and still dont, because thats what their used to. I personally have never had a problem feeling the heat. I have on several occasions went in on the nozzle looking for the fire, and had med to dark smoke to about 3-4 feet from floor, and no visible fire going in the front door. It was hot, and I knew something is not right. I would cool down the ceiling and just wait, listen, and watch. And of course depending on what I witnessed or observed, I would continue on and look, or go a differant route. Kimberly said it well, when she stated alot of us want to be right on the fire before we hit it, instead of doing it from a distance. Thanks for all the replies, they all have very good points.
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Forgot to mention.......I think the newer gear gives us a false sense of security, thinking we CAN stay longer or go closer. And thats where the training we do should tell us NO !!!
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