The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
What does it mean to be a Smoke Diver?
Do you have what it takes to be a Smoke Diver? Many have tried but been denied by thier own limitations. Yep, thats right, your limitations! I know that firefighting is about team work, but here at the Mississippi Fire Academy, we teach you about yourself as well. The Goals Have Been Set, Can You Measure Up?
The man that says; "I can't" and the man that says; "Ican" are both correct, which one are you?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
What value do smokedivers bring to a fire department?
If most firefighters can't even get in the class and there's a high attrition rate for the registrants, that would to seem to dilute the course value considerably, from the perspective of a local fire chief.
If you won't "face anything harder than what you did in the class", it would seem that the class is artificially difficult, because that statement seems to indicate that the smoke diver course doesn't replicate what will happen in real-life conditions.
Most local fire chiefs would rather have standardized, validated training that can be completed by all - or at least the vast majority - of their firefighters. That type of training has demonstrable value to the entire department, not just to a few firefighters.
I think that it's interesting that the states that do not have smoke diver courses don't seem to have relative higher LODD rates, higher per capita fire losses, or more RIT activations. If that is the case, then where is the "bang for the buck"?
-
Permalink Reply by Charlie on
-
Chief Waller, first you can't lump all Smoke Diver classes as the same. They are usually vastly different per state. The class isn't hard to get in if you want to. We have try outs which are competetive. If you want to take the class, you prepare on your own accord and get ready. Like I said before, we have a number of people from various states that attend. The class content very closely replicates what you can see in a shift. You never know how many fires you will have to respond to or how hard you will have to work (entrapments, hand lay hose, etc.). And for your statement of everyone being able to pass, I could not disagree with you more. If you choose a sedintary lifestyle, you don't practice, you don't further your knowledge, I can't lower my standards to meet yours. (Not a personal attack on you). We have candidates who are early 20's to their 50's. I believe the oldest to pass is 53. It's about what you are willing to give. Do you quit or keep on until you finish your task. It's definately not for everyone. As bang for the buck, as a trainer, I can promise you it would be near impossible to get more validated, comprehensive, and job related training anywhere for what we put in. As for your statements about LODD rates, per capita fires, RIT activations, I'd love to see your data. I have never seen that data compiled per state so you bring up an interesting point. I'd love to see the data to validate your assumption.
-
-
We teach essentially the same skills in our Firefighter Survival and RIT classes, but every skill we teach is validated by both a 3rd party and by other members of our department. By "validated", I mean that the skill is outlined with a Job Performance Requirement (JPR). By "validated", I also mean that I'd like to hear confirmed reports of exactly how the skills or concepts taught in the smoke diver class have positively affected a fireground outcome, especially when the vast majority of fires are fought by firefighters who are not smoke divers.
How many firefighters has the Denver Drill saved on a real fireground...anywhere?
Why should someone attend a smoke diver class to learn VES skills that can be taught in 4 hours at any NFPA 1402-compliant training center?
Etc?
I want to make it clear that I'm not bashing the class or the skills, but if I'm going to send firefighters to a smoke diver class I want to make sure that it's worth the time, effort, money, and potential risk to my firefighters.
I don't see a skills validation list on the GA smokediver page, but maybe I just missed it.
-
-
It is a conscious decision to live a sedintary lifestyle. I know that some cardiac events are genetic and can't be helped. A lot of them are results of years of poor health choices. Some vehicular accidents are avoidable, some are not. We don't cover vehicle driving, that's another class offered by the training center. We do teach you to remain calm and be aware of what you are doing. Now if you talk about fire ground incidents, then the web site statement is accurate. I am not trying to downplay any LODD incident, but you have to realistically look at all aspects of them.
-
-
Each skill has a action plan including a job performanc requirement. I know because I have to read the dang thing every time before we do something. I'm hoping that you don't choose classes by the incidents that occur. You don't want to teach out of air emergencies and what do to after someone has had that occur. I was just naming a few of the things we teach. They are too numerous for me to try to remember and post in a blog. Like I said in a previous post, Smoke Divers makes you better the day you leave than the day you arrived. It's not to make you better than so and so. I agree there are firefighters who can fight fire as good as or better than I can and they are not Smoke Divers. I just chose and still choose to continue my education and training to be the best that I can be. If you would like more information on the class, feel free to e-mail the webmaster. We are happy to accomodate out of state people.
-
-
The Phoenix study on the Southwest Supermarket LODD is a good place to start looking at a validated study. The LODD rates are easy to determine - look at the LODD rates per state, and compare the total per year from the states that run smoke diver classes to the ones that don't. The fact is that the vast majority of fireground LODDs are cardiac-related, not entrapment-related. We had 114 U.S. LODDs last year. I haven't read every single report, but the stats have been running 52% cardiac and something like 25% vehicle accident-related for several years. 2001 with the WTC outlier was the only recent exception. 52% of 114 is 59.28. 25% of 114 is 28.5. That means that somewhere around 87 of those LODDs were from causes that a smoke diver class will have zero impact upon. Some of the remaining 27 occurred in completely non-survivable incidents, but even if all 27 were survivable, that gives us an average of around 1 survivable LODD per year for every two states plus D.C. and three territories - say Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.
Then you have to calculate the odds that those specific 27 firefighters will be smoke divers. With smokedivers being a very small, elite population, it's unlikely that any single smoke diver will be involved in a LODD just on statstical chance.
If there's statistical evidence that only 1 fireground LODD will happen in my state and a neighboring state per year, and there are a couple of thousand fire departments in those two states, the chances of smoke diver training having a cost-effective positive impact on any single department is a very slight chance indeed.
Once again, I'm not knocking the training, just trying to find evidence that in this age of severely shrinking budgets, that the money wouldn't be better spent on other training that would have a more demonstrable impact on the local community. In accounting tems, I'd need to know that the smoke diver class had a higher net present value than the competing alternatives.
-
-
Roy, Smoke Divers has changed dramatically since its return. It takes about 50 instructors a day to put on the class. We return and keep coming back. We still learn. Some people do get "culled" because they can't pass the physical agility test. We have 32 slots per class. We often have close to 100 applicants per class. The physical agility test serves several purposes. It lets the candidate see a fraction of the physical requirements they will do daily. It shows that the candidate has put forth preparation for the class. This helps to minimize the people that sign up for the class because it sounds cool and have no idea what it involves. Everyone in the class, including instructors, are there because they want to be. The instructors don't get paid. We do it because we love it. Don't let the age thing scare you, if you want to be a Smoke Diver in Georgia, prepare and come on down. We had a candidate a few classes ago that was 53. He passed. He earned it.
-
Permalink Reply by SmOkE DivEr on
-
Well I guess I waited long enough. Again, Let me thank you Charlie, and all you guys that have responded to the question. But first thing first! This was not an attempt to discredit anybody, their state, their program, or their abilities. I do value everybodies opinion, but this was not meant to say that I 'm better than you because I'm a Smoke Diver. If it seems that way, I apologize.
The statement I made concerning MS and Ga being the hardest was simply a little humor. Hopefully no-ones feelings were hurt and if it was, get over it.
1. The Mississippi Smoke Diver is designed to assist a fifghter (ANY FIIGHTER) in becoming more aware of not only his/her limitations, but also their ABILITIES.
2. It's not designed to make you a hero. What I meant by prestige is this; Because the course has a 50%-55% pass/fail rate and because it so physically and mentally demanding, there truly is a since of self pride w/ HUMILITY when the course is completed. When you graduate from this course you know that you have accomplished something great. You know that you have learned more about yourself as a fighter and a person than could you could have ever imagined that this course could have taught you. Not that you can go back and brag to your fellow fighters about what you've accomplished, but that you will know, with-in yourself, what you can do and in what areas you may need more training.
3. Concerning grammer, I think its a bad taste of character to bash someone because of a few mispelled words. If thats the only thing we have to worry about in our fire districts, then we've done well with fire prevention. But for the record, we will be sure to check and double check that grammer. I think, for the most part, WE GET THE PICTURE!
4. We have RIT classes in place, this is not one of them. We have firefighter survival classes, this is not it. We give a team (which may be two ff or three) four scenarios in the morning (before lunch) and we four after lunch. Each scenario/evolution must be completed before proceeding to the next. The scenarios for the week are composed of:
* Strucural fire fighting / Below Grade and Above Grade fires
* Victim Search and Rescue
* Search and Rescue with Fire or multiple fires
* 3D Pad Fires
* Controlled Pad Fires / Liquid Fires.... this is for hose handeling techniques.
* Rapelling (very little)
* Above Ground and Below Ground Maze Searches
* Collapse Rescue/ Fire Hose Rescue (this is not structural collapse) Hose Follow, find a down firefighter
* High Rise Hose Handeling and fire fighting
* Victim Carries, 185lb Dummy carried up 6 floors and back down
* Victims range from infants to fire fighters
* Clean Rescuse and Dirty Rescues
etc......
5. You tell me, who do you want on the hose line with you. The guy that wants more training, and gets it. Or the guy that sits around the fire eating ding dongs abd honey buns all day bashing everybody else that wants to better themselves.
6. To say that we (Mississippi) have the best or hardest SD Program is very much opinionated, but if I don't take pride in the courses we offer, who will. But trust me, I only said that because I knew I would get some feed back on it. LOL. You would just have to try yourself and see.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
7. SIMPLY PUT>>>>THE COURSE IS DESIGNED TO MAKE YOU A MUCH BETTER FIREFIGHTER! MENTALLY, AND PHYSICALLY.
8. Just because you have a standardized testing, does that alone make a fireman equal. NO! and this class is not desihned to make you equal. It promotes teamwork, and self will power. Bang for your Buck! Well I can't speak for other states and their SD program, but until this day, No Mississippi Smoke Diver has died in the Line of Duty (LODD). NONE!!! Does that makes us better, no it doesn't. Does it speak volumes for the course?? YES!!!
-
-
Let me also clear this statement up. There are 983 Mississippi Smoke Divers (firefighters that have completed our program since 1976). When this blog was started, it's intention was to get feed back as it has done. So please continue to send your comments, and IDEAS. This program is offered to anyone, any state, and any country. Hopefully the website will be back up and running soon.
The goal has been set!
-
-
Smoke, thanks for joining in. I tried to explain the best that I could, some just don't understand for whatever reason. In my humble opinion, if one person learns one skill that saves his life, then you cannot put a price on that training. Take care and maybe we can run into each other one day. By the way, the training offered at the Georgia Public Safety Training Center is free for all Georgia public safety personnel. Is that cheap enough?
-
Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
-
Do you think yot going to use your minuim standars when your out of air and dragging a brother NO your going to do everying you know to do I would like to know the most i can to save your ass and mine and the more advaced training you have the more to you can but in your back pocket maybe when the fire gets above the so called STANDARD you
can fall back on whta you know and get home the next morning Fire has no STANDARD it does what it wants to
My point is that EVERY FF should have this so called spdecial training- make it the minimum standard. That way we've all got a better chance if this is so good...
-
-
Sorry about leaving you to defend my blog. But I do appreciate your input. I've been in Georgia for the past three days visiting family. I'm thinking of moving to the area. Any good FD or Academies I can apply for?
Myself and a couple of other Ms. Instructors are planning on coming to the Georgia SD Program, but only as observers.
God Bless you brother and I hope to meet you one day.
Oh? Have you ever been invovled in the Firefighter Combat Challenge World Competition?
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
