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STUPID
Well here it is, and I would love to hear what everyone thinks of this. Let me set the scenario.
A suppression team enters a structure ahead of the truck company and begins an attack. Half way down a hallway there is fire rolling over the head of an open doorway. The nozzleman hits the ceiling in the hall then advances the line to the doorway where he can see the seat of the fire and begins to knock it down from the hall. Once it is managed, he enters the doorway, places the nozzle to straight stream, does a few circles on the ceiling and proceeds to sweep the walls of the room looking for a window to vent from. Once he finds the window he is able to knock it out with the stream and begins the vent process.
The man on the nozzle happens to be a friend of mine and the person who told the story. This was in fact backed up by unsolicited accounts from others that were there. The problem is that there was also a Captain present at the burn and he dressed down the nozzleman for his actions.
His point was that the nozzleman should not have hit the ceiling in the hallway, nor should he have fought the fire from the hall. This Captain said that he should have gone directly into the room and up on the fire to put it out with as little water as possible. Captain X also stated that using the stream to find a window was stupid and said that he had never heard of that.
The actions of the nozzleman seemed textbook enough to me, (I'm speaking as a senior fireman with an awful lot of experience), and the comments from the young Captain seem like the type of advice to get you killed. I would love to hear from everyone, especially the older veterans on what you think of this.
I've added this.... There was an unlimited water supply. They were on a good hydrant with a large main and 1500 gal. on the truck. There is a twist to this that will make it better, (or worse), but I'll keep it close to my vest for a little while.
A suppression team enters a structure ahead of the truck company and begins an attack. Half way down a hallway there is fire rolling over the head of an open doorway. The nozzleman hits the ceiling in the hall then advances the line to the doorway where he can see the seat of the fire and begins to knock it down from the hall. Once it is managed, he enters the doorway, places the nozzle to straight stream, does a few circles on the ceiling and proceeds to sweep the walls of the room looking for a window to vent from. Once he finds the window he is able to knock it out with the stream and begins the vent process.
The man on the nozzle happens to be a friend of mine and the person who told the story. This was in fact backed up by unsolicited accounts from others that were there. The problem is that there was also a Captain present at the burn and he dressed down the nozzleman for his actions.
His point was that the nozzleman should not have hit the ceiling in the hallway, nor should he have fought the fire from the hall. This Captain said that he should have gone directly into the room and up on the fire to put it out with as little water as possible. Captain X also stated that using the stream to find a window was stupid and said that he had never heard of that.
The actions of the nozzleman seemed textbook enough to me, (I'm speaking as a senior fireman with an awful lot of experience), and the comments from the young Captain seem like the type of advice to get you killed. I would love to hear from everyone, especially the older veterans on what you think of this.
I've added this.... There was an unlimited water supply. They were on a good hydrant with a large main and 1500 gal. on the truck. There is a twist to this that will make it better, (or worse), but I'll keep it close to my vest for a little while.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Kelly Jernigan on
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Although you said Captain X is a young Captain, sounds like he learned live fire training from the old school. ie. crawling under fire, no need for ventilation and would rather save a few gallons of water vs. firefighter safety. Which is all fine and good for the older homes that were not built as tight as todays more modern structures and were made primarly of wood w/ little or no man made materials to escalate the heat to much above 1100 degrees F. However, today the structures have volitle materials that flash alot easier and alot earlier than years past thus the need for ventilation and use of water to cool the atmosphere to prevent same.
I do agree with the water usage before entering the fire room to prevent crawling under the flames and I can see the argument of cooling the atmosphere inside the fire room starting at the ceiling and ending your pattern down at the seat of the fire. Although there is a tremendous need for ventilation, I don't believe spraying water around the room until you "happen" to hit a window is the best solution. That would cause a tremendous amount of unneeded water damage. Why not just go over and open the window when the fire is out?
Now, during a training fire, most structures are open more than most, the heat holding materials have been removed according to EPA regulations and most people try to see how far they can go in w/o opening the nozzle to prove their courage. Yes, I have done that too, thinking I had something to prove. But now, I am a firm believer of training the way you work on the scene. So, I think the nozzleman you spoke about actually done more right than wrong and the Captain X seems to be stuck in the "training fire" or old school mentality.
Hopes this sheds a different light on the subject.
Stay safe!
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Kelly:
You hit on some very excellent points.
Materials that accelerate the room temperatures is one of the reasons that every thermal imaging camera should be equipped with an Accu-Temp feature.
The Illinois Fire Service Institute has done exhaustive studies, using thermal couplers on burn buildings to predict flashover temperatures. They have also done the same on heat and its effects on firefighters.
www.ifsi.edu for more on this.
Excellent points.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Mary Ellen Shea on
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Firefighter Safety first, save lives second....where does water conservation come into play in that discussion?
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Oh, ditto that Lawrence.
Amen.
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Permalink Reply by Mick Mayers on
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I want to go back to the second post on the thread, Art's. Do I REALLY get a replacement if I clear a window with my portable brick? Because I will, because my Motorola radio isn't good for much more than wheel chock, door chock, and now it sounds like ventilation tool. I haven't used the Kenwood, Art, but don't ask me to get started about these pieces of crap that Motorola puts out. I'm better off on most days with a Ouijia board. The Ouijia board gives you those quick "Yes" and "NO" answers- like "Command, do you want me to open up over here on Side Charlie?"; then glide your pointer to the "Yes" and let fly with the radio.
Sorry, the whole radio thing got me sidetracked. Thanks, Artie. I needed to vent (Get it?).
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Oh, by the way-
1) Never let the fire get behind you (or especially between you and the way out).
2) Never let anyone tell you you're using too much water (put the fire out- you can dry wet things, you can't unburn burned things).
3) Praise in public, yell in private (it might feel good to do the opposite, but frankly, you look stupid when you do and you'll get a lot more respect with a smart-ass comment instead of screaming at the guy).
4) Ignore #3 if it is going to get your personnel injured or killed (but usually, a little "What in the hell are you doing?" goes a long way in those cases).
And don't ever call a brother "stupid". That's just not nice. If someone is doing something wrong, teach them. Name calling isn't even something I tolerate from my kids, much less a supervisor. Good luck with that.
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Permalink Reply by Allen Wahlstrom on
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Hey Nick, Ditto on the Motorola radios...and ya think I could get some Old Bay Seasoning??? The guys here dont have a clue about a Low Country Boil! Yep did a few years in Savannah.
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Permalink Reply by Don Smith on
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Thanks for posting this. I never would have thought to cool the walls.
Seems like the job like it should have, but this is probably a good place to plug what the military calls an After Action Review. After the training or event is finished, get everybody together and go over what you wanted to do, what happened, what was right, what was wrong. As the facilitator often says, "thick skins. Not a personal attack." Then put the notes in a memo and file it with the others so you have a training reference. Really nothing more than a structured, recorded kitchen table discussion. Obviously it depends on how busy the company is, but it works.
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Permalink Reply by Jim Seargent on
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Hey Josh, Let me start by saying that if I have an issue at the house I don't try to solve it here. I wanted to hear what the seasoned minds on this site have to say. There are a number of things I would have done differently if I had been there. I did ask the questions and then after I had his answers I voiced my OPINION.
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I have a few mantras, one of the has always been, (as Mick Mayers pointed out), NEVER LET FIRE GET BEHIND YOU! To advance into the room would have done that. When I am forced to cook a steak in the broiler, (I would always rather use the BBQ), I never put my hand under the heating element. Why would I put my entire body and the bodies of my crew under the heating element that was rolling out of that doorway? Another mantra that I've had is "OWN THE CEILING". Yes, I am going to cool the ceiling in any active area I am in. Cool it early and often if it's really going. Why didn't the nozzleman just go to the window and break it? The visibility was zero in the room. He could make out the fire but nothing else. His entry, and size up of the building before, led him to believe that there was a good possibility of there being a window on the wall he chose. He was right, and I commended him for not risking entry. These are some great posts folks, I love to hear what you have to say.
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Permalink Reply by Dogg32 on
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Good post Jim. I enjoy the discussions on subjects that actually happen, and that we encounter on a regular basic. It helps keep us on our toes. Now to actually address your post. As for the fire in the hallway, Was it smoke and gas burning, or was the structure burning? This is what I look at when I go in. If it is gas, and smoke then I might not hit it, (depending on the temp in the hall) I f you can safely hit the seat of the fire then it will cool the smoke, and the the cooling mixed with the steam will take care of that. If I have any doubt then hit it. And that is entirely up to the entry crews discression. The actual in room tactics used seem to be sound ones. We use a straight stream a lot here, and do an aggressive attack in the fire room, sweeping the room entirely if needed. Using the hosestream to find a window can be good under the right conditions, even if it doesn't break, the sound is different and you know where it is. If there is the opportunity to do so, bring this up as training. An honest critique of this incident with all parties involved ( not yelling, fighting, or laying blame) telling why they did what they did will be a learning experience for all involved.
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