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STUPID
Well here it is, and I would love to hear what everyone thinks of this. Let me set the scenario.
A suppression team enters a structure ahead of the truck company and begins an attack. Half way down a hallway there is fire rolling over the head of an open doorway. The nozzleman hits the ceiling in the hall then advances the line to the doorway where he can see the seat of the fire and begins to knock it down from the hall. Once it is managed, he enters the doorway, places the nozzle to straight stream, does a few circles on the ceiling and proceeds to sweep the walls of the room looking for a window to vent from. Once he finds the window he is able to knock it out with the stream and begins the vent process.
The man on the nozzle happens to be a friend of mine and the person who told the story. This was in fact backed up by unsolicited accounts from others that were there. The problem is that there was also a Captain present at the burn and he dressed down the nozzleman for his actions.
His point was that the nozzleman should not have hit the ceiling in the hallway, nor should he have fought the fire from the hall. This Captain said that he should have gone directly into the room and up on the fire to put it out with as little water as possible. Captain X also stated that using the stream to find a window was stupid and said that he had never heard of that.
The actions of the nozzleman seemed textbook enough to me, (I'm speaking as a senior fireman with an awful lot of experience), and the comments from the young Captain seem like the type of advice to get you killed. I would love to hear from everyone, especially the older veterans on what you think of this.
I've added this.... There was an unlimited water supply. They were on a good hydrant with a large main and 1500 gal. on the truck. There is a twist to this that will make it better, (or worse), but I'll keep it close to my vest for a little while.
A suppression team enters a structure ahead of the truck company and begins an attack. Half way down a hallway there is fire rolling over the head of an open doorway. The nozzleman hits the ceiling in the hall then advances the line to the doorway where he can see the seat of the fire and begins to knock it down from the hall. Once it is managed, he enters the doorway, places the nozzle to straight stream, does a few circles on the ceiling and proceeds to sweep the walls of the room looking for a window to vent from. Once he finds the window he is able to knock it out with the stream and begins the vent process.
The man on the nozzle happens to be a friend of mine and the person who told the story. This was in fact backed up by unsolicited accounts from others that were there. The problem is that there was also a Captain present at the burn and he dressed down the nozzleman for his actions.
His point was that the nozzleman should not have hit the ceiling in the hallway, nor should he have fought the fire from the hall. This Captain said that he should have gone directly into the room and up on the fire to put it out with as little water as possible. Captain X also stated that using the stream to find a window was stupid and said that he had never heard of that.
The actions of the nozzleman seemed textbook enough to me, (I'm speaking as a senior fireman with an awful lot of experience), and the comments from the young Captain seem like the type of advice to get you killed. I would love to hear from everyone, especially the older veterans on what you think of this.
I've added this.... There was an unlimited water supply. They were on a good hydrant with a large main and 1500 gal. on the truck. There is a twist to this that will make it better, (or worse), but I'll keep it close to my vest for a little while.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Now Im just picking on you when I say this Dogg32, but unless its smoldering its always the smoke and gasses that are burning!! lol.
Good topic. And I agree with everyone realy and it was said in an earlier post...there are many different ways to attack a fire and its up to the IC to choose which tactic he/she will employ...but on the other hand its up to the trained nozzleman to make last minute decisions to handle an ever changing environment and make it safe for entry. The nozzleman did their job by hitting the ceiling, cool off the celing and it will make it easier to enter and hit the seat.
As far as hitting the window with the stream, Im on the fence. Ive learned from my father that that sometimes is the easier, SAFER way to take a window if the stream is powerful enough. But I have the same question...where was the vent team? Usually when you see water is flowing on the fire the vent team is supposed to take the windows in the fire room so the heat and steam exit the building instead of going back into the attack teams faces.
Using the stream to "vent" is called hydraulic ventilation and I use it regularly, its the same as using a fan but with water, and as long as you have the water it sure beats waiting for the fan to be retrieved and set up.
Good Topic.
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Permalink Reply by Jim Seargent on
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Just as a point of clarification, there was no vent team available. This was a fast attack by the 1st in engine with the truck on the road.
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Oh, ok. That explains a little more than. Were there any more firefighters on scene at all, or just the attack team?
In that case I would have tried to pop the window with the stream, rather than try to put my weight on the floor. Visibility was poor, you needed to vent to see in order to extinguish the fire, I would have tried too. Safer. And without the outside vent team that was probably the safest way.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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5. Boat anchor (tied together in groups of 5 with batteries)
4. Paper weight
3. Trade-in on Kenwood portables
2. Hood ornament (on moving vehicle)
1. “Whacker” belt accessory
(sorry, couldn't resist)
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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I had a Kenwood PR once.
Every time I keyed the mike, the garage door would go up and down and the channel on the TV would change.
Guys said that I sounded like Cary Grant, but who could understand him?
Which reminds me; has anyone seen my Teaberry CB?
Art
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So what's wrong with one radio replacing two remotes?
Your Teaberry may be sitting next to my Motorola MoCat 23 channel rig.
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Permalink Reply by Mary Ellen Shea on
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THAT was snarky, but dead-on right.
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now how'd you get to be so smart????
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Permalink Reply by ee779 on
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As an officer and a seasoned firefighter, without being there, I'm really not going to play armchair quarterback! But, if this captain said what he did on scene, His actions were wrong! What we do to avoid confrontations on a scene is simple, after all is said and done and the trucks are ready for the next call, keep in mind we are a 100% volunteer company 1 of 4 in town, we have a short pow-wow in the training room to discuss what was done, what wasn't and what we need to work on for the next time! This way we keep our dirty laundry out of the general public(because one of the other 3 companies might hear something they shouldn't) (and the donations from the public is how we survive), and usually if someone has to be repramanded it comes directly from the chief (after the discussion in private)
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Better an after-action review than a post-mortem.
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Permalink Reply by ENGINECREW CAPT. aka Pres.FHMC on
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I am a captain with 32 years experience.The man on the pipe did the right thing,he used his head.As for the Capt.,NEVER belittle your men(ladies) on the scene,or any where for that matter.Ask why,and then critique why not.My boys are all volly and we do what we can with what we have.We are a truck company as well as engine and rescue.Water is limited here but we still believe in Big Fire,Big Water.Thank God my guys are well trained,we usually don't need more than our Tanker holds (3500 Gals) But if we do we can rely on mutual aid tanks and pumpers to be there.As for venting with the hose,he didnt need to go into the fire anymore than he had to.I read a reply here that stated "why add weight to a burned floor?".you aint kiddin bro,I've gone thru 2 floors and it sure as hell aint fun.
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Permalink Reply by will grasser on
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i know im young as i only have 10years in the fire service but i'll give my comment.as for the hall way up to person.now for entering the room NO way would i enter the room that is that involved.going to the ceiling is the right thing to do.that room needs cooled down before any fire knock down can be done.i would hit the seat of fire then and knock it down.i would never use a full stream inside of a house.i aways widen the stream from hose inside of structure you get more coverage that way.not saying a fog just not a full stream back it down a click or two thats all.cooling the walls is not a bad idea,as for window why did not someone else at the scene do that as in a vent team?
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