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Monday morning quarter backs: Where is the leadership? Where is the safety officer?
Monday morning quarterbacks: Please carefully review the video at the following links. Make a note of your observations of safety issues that you see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session. What were the risks to personnel and equipment? What safety violations do you observe? What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great. However we all need to compare what the risks to their lives were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander. When will we learn???
Where are our command officers? Where are our safety officers? Where are our training officers? Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session. What were the risks to personnel and equipment? What safety violations do you observe? What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great. However we all need to compare what the risks to their lives were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander. When will we learn???
Where are our command officers? Where are our safety officers? Where are our training officers? Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Siren,
Im sorry you feel that way. There are a few people here who are going about this the wrong way, and Im not defending them. But to see ANY firefighter, be it career or volunteer, without their gear is wrong. And to defend them and come up with excuses is not any better. I cant believe you and others are actually saying this is ok.
Its very childish to come into a discussion and instead of bringing up facts to back your points up you throw insults out. After all, you are upset cause a few of the others threw insults at the brothers in the videos, right? What good will it do anyone to continue to throw insults back and forth? It doesnt take experience to know how to protect yourself and wear the gear thats provided, and most of us are posting here to hopefully stop ALL firefighters from getting killed....Not bash each other, contrary to what you and a few others think.
Oh, and to add to your above comment....to slam ANY of your fellow firefighters is unprofessional, especially when coming from a professional. You contradicted yourself. Im so glad that some of you are more interested in peoples profile pictures than actually working together to make EVERYONE safe.
What do you say, do you want everyone to be safe or would you rather keep attending funerals?
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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Brian, I dont see where anyone proved anyone wrong. My statment about the Lives saved was because of the man power, and because of the quickness in response....Less then 3 minutes from tone to arrival...lives have been saved. I took exception to the fact that I person bashes a fire dept based on a small clip. Bashed a FD on not wearing SCBA on the roof, but if he looked at the big picture he would have seen that there was no ladder to the rear. Personally....and not because this is my dept, I think thats a bigger mistake then no SCBA.
So...I'll let you all in on WHY there was no ladder to the rear. 3 floors in the front does not always mean three floors in the rear. This was closer to 6 in the rear. Big time drop off in the rear. Railroad tracks in the back, No access for the truck to get back there.
You do have to admit, and we spoke about this , that some people on these site have little to no interior experience These are the ones that should keep there mouth shut and eyes open. Dont like the SCBA not on..fine, question why no ladder to the rear.....Not why they had no SCBA in the open air!!
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Permalink Reply by Tom Lambui on
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I thought the straps on the helmets were there to hold the chocks!!
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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Dave, you obviously have the inside scoop here. Was there a post-fire review or discussion of what happened?
What I saw was fire coming out of the front attic or cockloft area, and crews in the 3rd floor. Was there a double ceiling or roof hiding the fire from their view, or did a hose line burst, or what? What was done that should not have been done, or what did not happen that should have?
Obviously something out of the ordinary happened here, and unfortunately an "oops" was captured on film. I'm not trying to be critical, just trying to gain an understanding of the event and learn from it.
We don't have 3-deckers where I am - I don't think I've ever seen one up close - so I'm not familiar with the construction factors involved.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Part of the problem in this discussion is that it is being framed as a "interior" vs. "exterior" department mentality as if those were either a) the only choices or b) the right way to do it every time. Neither of these is really appropriate. We're supposed to be smart enough to know more than one way to get the job done, right?
The smartest fire departments are the ones that know how to attack either offensively or defensively...or even try a transitional strategy when it's appropriate. What concerns me more about whether you occasionally see someone with partial PPE is that, while PPE and SCBA are important, if that roof failed, the PPE and SCBA probably wouldn't have been enough to save them from very serious injury and likely multiple LODDs.
An overall strategy that looks our for the firefighters is much more important than the details most of the time, no matter how important PPE and SCBA are.
If your helmets won't stay on during routinely-performed tasks, maybe we need to think about improving the helmet retention system or wearing a helmet that will stay on while we work.
As for SCBA being heavy, bulky, and getting in the way - all are correct.
On the other hand, we only get one set of lungs, and inhaling fire poisons and superheated air can quickly ruin an irreplaceable body part. My department routinely wears full PPE including SCBA for all roof operations, even when it's 98 degrees F out and the humidity has things jacked into the 115 heat index range.
It would be nice if both sides of this could discuss a difference of opinion calmly and professinally without resorting to insults and to generalizations that don't apply to a lot of the individuals to whom they are directed.
As for the career vs.volunteer thing, I've been both, and the fire NEVER asked me if I got paid to fight it, or how much. The fires were extinguished, regardless. As for parking lots - the U.S. fire service sends way too many firefighters into "born loser" fires where there is no life hazard except to us. It is up to the strategy level - COMMAND to keep firefighters out of situations like overhauling fried upper floors with an uncontrolled fire eating away the roof supports immediately overhead. Then again, maybe Command didn't have the convenience of aerial video as we did.
Think about it when you do the Monday morning quarterbacking - what to we hear over and over after big incidents? "Everybody watching on TV had a better look at the conditions than did the chiefs at the command post." What that tells me is that maybe we need to start getting satellite TV feeds from the news cameras to the command post - especially the aerial shots - in order to improve our situational awareness. It's difficult to correct problems that you aren't aware of. Maybe we need to think about being able to make Command more situationally aware and apply strategic solutions instead of focusing on task-level solutions that, while important, won't solve the bigger issues.
We need to keep firefighter safety in mind at all times, and use smart, size-up and pre-plan based strategic and tactical decisions.
We also need to keep the famous words of two different men in mind here.
"Friends may come, and friends may go, but enemies accumulate. "
Alan Brunacini
"Can't we all just get along?" Rodney King
Ben
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Joe,
ALot of the older triple deckers have two cielings. Not uncommon in that area of the city. What also happend at this fire was the rubber roof took off on them. Funny part is we had a fire the other day where the rubber roof flashed and chased the truckies off the roof and caught a saw on fire. Spoke to a deputy at a fire recap today about it, Back when rubber roofs...not tar and gravel..started to become more popular my dept had released some reports on the dangers. They found that a fire will spread between the rubber and the insulation of the roof, heating the vapors of the glue to catch and take off on you. HE was going to look for the old info on the rubber roofs and re-release it. If and when it is done I will be sure to post it. They did discuss a ladder to the roof on rubber roofs only, for surface fire ONLY.
I posted earlier on why we didnt have a ladder to the rear, recap....no access for a truck, and with a large elevation change no ground ladder would reach the roof. I Will post a pic of a typical triple decker.
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Thanks for the information, Dave. We will be watching for the rubber roof info.
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Ah...a triple decker porch fire!! How come they always start on the first floor?? Picture is hard to see on the bottom..but am I seeing the old gasoline shingles?? Gotta enjoy how they put the siding over them!!
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tried to upload a file....lets see if this works
first one is a side view of a triple decker, second one is a street full of them. - Attachments:
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Permalink Reply by Ron Graner on
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Dave
I really wish that as a brother professional firefighter you would stop making the statements you are making about safety issues in your department in this very public forum.
Not only do these statements make your great department appear to less than professional in the eyes of the rest of the fire service, your statements about tolerated safety violations will come back to haunt you and your department when, not if, injuries and deaths occur. They will be used against your department in legal actions by families of those killed or injured and by OSHA in safety violation fines as a minimum.
Most immediately, if your statements are true, they can and probably will be used by the BFD senior leadership as evidence in charges against the people in your immediate command of chain. Any company or battalion commander who would condone these safety breeches would be in dereliction of their sworn duty to enforce nationally recognized safety standards in the fire service.
If the things you are reporting are in deed factual, and I pray they are just youthful boasting, you have an opportunity to help make your department leadership and your union who are there to help assure firefighter safety as a primary objective to become aware of the changes that they must make to save firefighters lives and prevent injury.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Certainly the advent of video and event recollection through the media opens one's eyes to exactly how dangerous the job is.
To nitpick is opening yourself up to maintaining your high standards. Tough Job.
It also highlights the ever increasing scrutiny we're going to be under from all forms- each other, the public, the authorities, etc, etc.
Gotta be so careful becuase you just don't know who's watching....
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Ron:
You have to understand that the cavalier attitude towards safety is what draws the moths to the light bulb.
If you espouse the safety aspects of the job, then you are tarnishing the glamour of what attracts the risk takers.
In the minds of many, it isn't the NFPA standards or anything else. It is whether or not they can push the envelope and live to tell about it another day.
People still want to roll the dice and wish that they will come out the winner.
People like us are dinosaurs.
Many still believe that firefighting and safety are not on the same page.
Goldfeder and the rest of us are simply "safety susans".
Sad, but true.
TCSS.
Art
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