Monday morning quarter backs: Where is the leadership? Where is the safety officer?

Monday morning quarterbacks: Please carefully review the video at the following links. Make a note of your observations of safety issues that you see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session. What were the risks to personnel and equipment? What safety violations do you observe? What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great. However we all need to compare what the risks to their lives were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander. When will we learn???
Where are our command officers? Where are our safety officers? Where are our training officers? Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on June 22, 2008 at 4:52pm

Dave,

I completely understand your point. I just like the extra protection from the hood and using a thermal imager to see the heat before my ears get toasted.

I realize that I'm probably not going to change your mind, and I could offer several personal stories where my ears have been saved by hoods in situations where the fire suddenly rolled out a doorway when the door was opened in places where bare ears would not have given us adequate warning.

I just hope that neither of us ever needs to come see the other in a burn unit, regardless of personal preferences.

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Permalink Reply by Dave on June 22, 2008 at 5:06pm

Ben,
In a perfect world we would all have TIC, but in reality you and I both know that depts cant afford to outfit all members with one.

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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on June 22, 2008 at 5:54pm

Because they see lots of fire and have lots of tradition, doesn't make it safe.

That's the argument that people are having....

As I said in a recent blog I wrote, challenge tradition, especially if it's compromisiing your safety.

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Permalink Reply by Dave on June 22, 2008 at 6:20pm

Lutan,
Why change for the sake of change?? We operate in a fashion that we know works for us and is best suited for our operation. You may think it is unsafe, maybe it is, but it is how we are comfortable in working. Remember this, no matter how safe you think you are.....the only real safe place in the profession is in your bunk at the station! Sometimes thats not even safe!!

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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on June 22, 2008 at 8:00pm

Dave, no one is suggesting change for the sake of change- what's being discussed is if it is a safe practice and is there a safer alternative?

It's about preventing LODD's.

It's unfortunatate that this video has been the centre of attention in this discussion becasue YouTube and other websites are laoded with others which depict far, far, far worse practices.

We need to implement change for the sake of saving lives- our lives!

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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on June 22, 2008 at 8:22pm

Based on your commentary (and what I have seen personally) it's all coming back to the "good ole boy" system. It's unfortunate, but true. I watched a person take a deputy chief spot with 0 classes or qualifications while being a firefighter for 10 years. NO CLASSES!!! Its rampant in the fire service, but seems to be getting a little better throughout with better laws and guidelines set forth by NFPA, OSHA and individual state law.

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Permalink Reply by Ron Graner on June 23, 2008 at 10:54am

As we all know, there are nationally recognized standards to fill every position in the fire service. The problem is that many departments have not adopted those standards. There is no legitimate reason for them not to have done so. To make those departments change, their community leaders need to step in to assure that those departments do have qualified leaders.
The repeated expressions that we do things the way we do them because that is how we have always done them that way have been repeated for as many years as there has been fire services in any community no matter what its size. It is the dumbest excuse known to mankind.
To recognize that many of the LODD and injuries are a direct result of cuts in staffing is right on target. That those departments who operate with fewer people per unit and per incident have not examined their accepted operational practices in light of those cuts in staffing and modified their operational practices to accommodate the staffing provided is negligence on the part of management and the leaders of labor in those departments.
It is actually good to see people with only a few years service using this site to open and participate in discussions. If they can open mindedly view what is said and then move forward in an effort to improve FF safety within their own departments they may save some lives that more seasoned followers of the old school.
Those who are more senior that do go out and train others in the skills they need to be good aggressive firefighters also need to be keenly aware of their responsibility to teach proper safety practices along with and as a primary part of every thing they teach. They can never teach only the traditions of charging in because that is how we have always done it because of the negative impact they will make on safety in the fire service as well as for the individual liabilities they face for those practices when those taught die in LODDs.
Again, I refer back to the excellent City of Charleston Post Incident Assessment
and Review done by the team led by J. Gordon Routley. Every person in every department should be reading this report as they examine their own departments generally accepted practices.
There is no real acceptable excuse not to practice the highest standards of safety on every incident.

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Permalink Reply by FF Schoen on June 23, 2008 at 2:35pm

Can everyone just stop hating on BFD for a minute and understand that it is what happens. You do not work for them so don't trash them for carrying out their duties the way their SOG's say to. NFPA is a recommendation only. It is not law or anything more than that out here. NFPA is regulated by industry...why do you think it is so friekin expensive to keep up with the new standards that keep coming out. I think bunker gear was made for a reason and to be used for our safety, but I for one am not going to sit here and rail on someone for not doing something. I am not in their shoes or running on their rigs. I am from a small department where we have more scene responsibility per firefighter than most of the large departments in the area. Rehab is a luxury in some circumstances out this way.

Dave,

Good Stop on that fire. God Bless You at BFD.. Stay Safe and Never Forget

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Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on June 23, 2008 at 3:11pm

Dave,

How the BFD does truck work is how Boston does truck work; You and your Bean towne brothers passed the right test. The "that's how we do buisness in Boston" test. Would I recommend the BFD method to Podunk, NC. Hell no!, Or to 99% of departments out there, No! The brothers on the West Coast probally lost their Wheaties watching you guys work, not because it was dangerous but because you didn't lead off with the fan..... ( That's a joke )

Keep Putting them Fires out
Boston is lucky to have the manning they do.

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Permalink Reply by Ron Graner on June 23, 2008 at 4:08pm

Just for the record. I hope no one takes anything that I said as a hate toward BFD. I have a lot of respect for that department. I had a long time professional friendship with the Commish both when he was there and for many years after. He did think about the safety of his people and he worked hard to get that message down the line to his troops.
RE NFPA standards and other standards: Please do not think for even a brief moment that these standards do not effect every department, even those that have not adopted them. As the industry recognized standards for conduct they are what are cited as the accepted practices when things have gone wrong. They are cited in the post incident analysis, in the termination hearings and in the courts when the leadership of the department and the community leaders are on the witness stand facing prosecution and fines.
REHAB is never a luxury when the health and safety of personnel is concerned unless they are actively in process of a life rescue. Key: Risk a little for property and risk a lot for lives.
The whole point of opening this discussion was to get us talking about what each department CAN do to prevent further loss of life of, and injury to, our bother and sister firefighters during their battles to save property that can be replaced. Discussion is never an attack on those who work the job and do their best. It is a pathway to keep them all safer no matter where they work.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on June 23, 2008 at 6:13pm

You're right, but there are a couple of other aspects to this. There are non-budget ways to fund TICs - SAFER grants, state or federal homeland security grants, local LEPC money, foundation grants, etc.

TICs are less expensive than burn center stays, too. It's just how you sell it to the powers that be.