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Experience vs. Education
This is a topic on another forum. The question is what do you think is more important in the fire service? After a few replies most people agreed that a balanced combination of both is best. I turned the question around a little bit... in some cases you won't have that balance and will need to choose between the 2. So if you are working with another firefighter which would you prefer... someone with a good deal of education, but little experience or someone with years of experience but little in the aspect of formal education? Just wanted to see what people opinions on here would be since I've been havin' an argument about this subject with someone for a few days now.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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Well, I can pretty firmly say I would choose the person with the experience. I can use my own department as an example. A lot of the men who were hired 30 years ago had a high school education, did the training and have learned along the way. Some of them may have taken courses or gone out on their own to learn more about certain operations, but many of them have been on the job learners and know way more about real firefighting than any book could teach. You can study fire science all you want, but being there and learning to make life and death decisions in a fraction of a second is the real education.
I think taking courses and getting degrees certainly has it's advantages and is never a bad idea, but if I had to choose one or the other, I am going to go with the veteran with years of experience over the new guy with three degrees. Either way though, the one in charge is the one in charge for a reason and you likely never have a chance to choose whom to listen to. There is one commanding officer on scene and that is who you listen to, experience or education aside.
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Permalink Reply by Donnie Bathje on
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I am pro-education. I don't think we can ever achieve to much schooling. But if I was faced with having to choose one or the other, I would have to say experience. I want to know that my partner know what to do when the "crap" hits the fan. OJT is great and many things are learned along the way. As long as we learn and no one gets hurt then so be it.
Of course the best scenario is a combination of both education and experience. But if it must be one only.......I vote for experience.
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Permalink Reply by Amy on
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Well the guy I've been arguing with has many, many certs. He has alot of book knowledge. He however has pulled some stupid stunts on fireground. I've been trying to explain to him the fact that while education is important... in the fact that it gets the ball rolling and teaches you the basics... it is not everything. He has told me that if you have an experienced, uneducated person teaching the uneducated, inexperienced you will have a bunch of ignorant people who think they know what they are doing running around. He has thrown at me the fact that if you have a 30+ yr. experienced guy train a rookie to do something and someone gets hurt you will lose a lawsuit because he has no formal education. I then asked him if it is ok to let's just say lose a structure and 2 lives because the educated guy only knows the books and not know how to put it together on fireground.
This guy basically says without education you have nothing. I made the statement that most of the books that we learn from today were written by those guys who only had 30+ years of experience and if you say experience is nothing then you are throwing out the basis of our education. He then asked why you can't get the experienced guys to go to a class. He said he can plainly see from some of my posts (backing up the experience side of things) that we haven't learned anything from past incidents on fireground.
While I do think education is a good thing... (I take my classes, and work hard for my certs.) I don't think it's everything because you'll have those people who I'm sure we've all seen that will sleep through class or only show up for half of it and still get a cert and think they know everything. To me a cert. is really nothing more than a piece of paper with your name on it saying that you attended the class. It really doesn't mean anything until you get out in the real world and prove that you learned something at that class. There are too many "educated" guys out there who have no common sense and while they can recite the info from any book out there they don't know what to do on fireground. But the guy who has 30+ years in the fire service with little formal education or training can tell you when, why, and how to do something because he's been there and done that many times before.
I honestly think I'm fighting a kind of losing battle with this guy thought because he feels he's God's gift to firefighting and that he does know everything and feels he is always "right". He also feels that if you do have 30+ years of experience but no education that there is no way you can be doing things in a safe manor.
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So, in his way of "educated" thinking, if I am taught something by my Capt who has 28 years of experience but no degree in fire science, and I get hurt while doing my job, I can sue him because he does not have a degree. You can basically sum that up with this, "That's horseshit!" Education does not equal intelligent. I work with many people without formal fire related education, aside from Drill School and I guarantee I have no problem working with them and taking orders from them.
There is nothing wrong with having an education, infact I feel very strongly about schooling, but if you are going to rely on that solely, you are lacking the intelligence to make yourself a well rounded firefighter. That's really too bad.
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"So, in his way of "educated" thinking, if I am taught something by my Capt who has 28 years of experience but no degree in fire science, and I get hurt while doing my job, I can sue him because he does not have a degree."
Basically yes... but regardless... even if you do have the education to back up what you taught the guy chances of the NFPA actually sticking their noses in and having your back are slim... because they weren't there when the incident happened and they don't know exactly what and how it happened.
And yes... he is one of those guys who quotes NFPA guidelines like he's reciting passages from a bible.
This guy is a wealth of knowledge book wise.... but not so much on fireground.
To give you an example of one of his screw ups... I'm not sure how many of you out there know what or how to hot tap a hydrant, but he tried this at a fire a few years back. Basically you have an engine hooked to a hydrant pumping to another engine... apparently if you keep the pressure steady you should be able to hook another line in at the hydrant. (I'm sure this isn't the exact procedure, because I don't know how to do it nor do I want to know.) He's tried it twice.. once back in '95 which ended up with a guy taking a pony cap to the nuts. The other time just a couple years ago... he told a rookie (with no education or experience ;-) ) to take the pony cap off... it went flying 50 feet across one of the main intersections of town! The rookie was pushed out of the way so he didn't take the cap with full impact. Can you imagine if there would have been cars going through that intersection?!
This "educated" guy has never been inside a working structure in any recent time. The last time that anyone can remember him going inside he panicked and bailed on the other guy he was with. I've been in the fire service 2 years and never saw him do anything, inside. I have seen him bark orders to a Lieutenant when he wasn't a line officer though. And my boyfriend who has been in for 7 or 8 years has never seen him inside on a working structure fire.
Here is his way to hot tap:
1) the hydrant steamer and the engine steamer intake must be connected with a section of soft sleeve hose.
2) the hose to be connected to the charged hydrant should already be hooked to a gated intake on the engine. The gated intake is to be in the closed position.
3) the engine throttle must stay at a constant RPM during the evolution.
4) the hydrant is closed to a point to were the discharge pressure is maintained and the intake pressure is at zero PSI.
4) NO ONE STANDS IN FRONT OF THE PONY CAP THAT IS TO BE REMOVED! Stand to either side. Make sure everyone within 50' is not standing in direct line with the hydrant pony cap to be removed.
5) Remove the pony cap and attach the hose quickly.
6) Re-open the hydrant once the hose is attached and secure.
The same result can be accomplished by placing a gated valve on the hydrant prior to the initial charging of the hydrant.
He even admits that it is old school and you shouldn't do it but he tries to do it anyway!!! He blames the problem with his most recent attempt on it on his crew... he said he over estimated his abilities... He was a ROOKIE!! Didn't even have Essentials yet and Mr. Education knew this!!!
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Oh and by the way... if anyone would like to add the 2 cents in on the forum where this is taking place feel free to join up. You may get a few laughs from it.
Columbia County Forum
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Yeah well... try telling God that he is wrong... he does admit his mistake in that he never should have tried it with his crew. And of course it wasn't only the rookie, but the pump operator as well. Everyone else's faults... not his!
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Well that was with our old engine and we didn't have a humat valve... when we got our new engine a year ago he got his humat valve... and he has since left the station... and he says we never use the thing when in reality we use it everytime we have to hit the hydrant.
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Yup, I resemble those first remarks... lol. I said nothing wrong on another forum and was still asked why I was "posting about the job". I wasn't even posting about operations or people, just that I was happy to be with my first choice department, etc. I stay completely anonymous now for that very reason. Big Brother is always watching! ;)
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Permalink Reply by Dan Hoey on
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I am late to this topic but I have to say Why is there a difference? Exp and education should be the same. I have 20 years exp and I still continue my education. In my family between my dad and brothers we had over 90 years of exp...lol...and trust me fire fighting to my dad was different then it is to me. I took his exp and add my Ed. I remember when he was working a truck in Brooklyn NY he told me Son be a doctor or a lawyer this is no way to make a living..lol..That made me want to do it more.
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He's not a member at my station anymore... and these are things he's already heard before.. some of them from me. And if he does come on here that's fine by me, because I will tell it all to him face to face. But thank you for the warning. If it does happen I'm not scared.. Let him try it.
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