The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Failure to Respond! Is this True?
Hello Everyone,
I read a article the other day on Yahoo that really got my blood pressure goin. Basically what happened was an elderly man was having abdominal pain. He called for an ambulance, dispatch advised that due to large amounts of snow it might be a little while. The elderly man was calm and was ok with it. After 30 hours later and 10 calls to the dispatch, the elderly man dies. Comes to find out the ambulance crews were about a quater mile from the residence and refused to walk in the snow to assist the man, and ambulance crews wanted the man to walk to them. The man refused due to his pain level. Here is a link to the story http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,587627,00.html
Now I read it and I thought it was bull****. We are there to serve the community when they need us, I believe that no matter what conditions are present we have a job to due. When there is a person who gets hurt on a quad in the woods and calls for us we don't make them walk to us. We get all the stuff we believe we need and get them, end of story. Its a huge liability to let someone die especially when we would refuse to walk a little in the cold weather. I have been part of calls where we need to do some walking just to reach the incident, and to me thats no problem at all. If it helps someone live or resolves the problem that is 100% fine by me. Now I don't know the full details on the ambulance crews side but if what was stated in the article really happened that way and thats all, then that is wrong and their certs should be pulled. I strongly urge to read and would like your opinion. If you were part of the ambulance crew and their is more details or know any details please post, I would like to know.
Thanks for reading and posting back.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Shaun Hansen on
-
I read this article the other day when it came out. Man, nothing gets my blood pressure up more than this. We all agree that we need to do what ever it take to provide need to citizens. That's why we all signed up right. These guys that responded to this call will get thiers in the end. I dont see how they ever will keep thier job after this. There probably will be charges with this also. The dispatch center will be right next to these guys in the investigation that will persue. Regardless, I have walked thru mud waist deep after a mud slide to help a trapped resident in the house get out. We all had to do some pretty radical stuff at times, who cares if your clothes get wet, muddy, dirty, stained, none of us do. We are here to help. Bottom Line. And we will all do it.
-
Permalink Reply by Rob on
-
There are some other facts in this case that need to be shared before you make your final judgments.
The caller actually canceled the medics three times.
The dispatcher called the house and advised that the ambulance was close but could not get through the snow at that time. The caller said ok and canceled the call. The same thing happened on successive calls, and the dispatcher asked if the patient was able to walk to the ambulance. When she said no, she canceled the call and chose to wait.
The canceling of the calls helped significantly to convince medics that this was not a priority event, and was not serious enough for them to battle on foot through 2 feet of snow for 1/2 a mile. Also, the dispatchers and medics failed to recognize that these were repeat calls and that something was indeed seriously wrong.
Personally, I think the medics should have sucked it up and walked through the snow on the first call. That's what I would have done, and did actually do on that night (I'm in Pittsburgh too). However, I can understand them questioning the urgency of the call, especially since it was extremely busy that night and there were what would be classified as higher priority calls coming in constantly. The caller, sadly, did not understand the full urgency of the patients condition and in an understanding of the challenges facing the medic crew, chose to cancel rather than wait or insist.
I believe if the caller hadn't canceled the calls and if the dispatch system and crews had recognized the repeat nature of the calls, the medics would have gotten there sooner. But they didn't and ultimately it comes down to poor judgment on the first call.
-
Permalink Reply by Tammy on
-
I also read the article you referred to in your post and it just amazes me that there are EMS/Fire personnel that don't care enough about a PERSON in need of medical treatment to get alittle cold. I live in the Easter Panhandle of WV and in the recent snow storms we received 50+ inches of snow. We had crew wading through waist deep or higher snow with drifts 10 feet deep in some places to get to patients. Our state was under a "State of Emergency" and the Governor authorized the National Guard in the neighboring county to deploy Hummers to all the local fire departments to assist with accessing patients. We also had the State Department of Highways at our disposal to plow/grade/salt or whatever was necessary to get to where we needed to go. The biggest surprise was all the private citizens that used their personal 4-wheel drive trucks with plows or farm equipment to lend a hand to open the roads or patient's driveways if the situation called for a speedy response that DOH was unable to provide. My prayers go out to the family that lost their loved one it is a tragedy and gives thoses of us that do care a negative image.
-
Permalink Reply by Justin Sandoval on
-
I agree with what you said. If it were outside of scene safety, I could understand a delayed time or a reasoning for not responding. I do like the idea on winter PPE, that would be something they should look into. They should also look into their employees activity level and attitude for saving someones life. It sounded like they were selfish about staying warm then risking a little to save alot. This wasn't a huge risk, it was just a little manual labor thats all. Maybe things will change now, since they have to physically go to the door......
-
-
The only thing I would have to agree on is that you would have walked through the snow the first time. Yes the caller cancelled the call three times and yes the dispatcher should have recognized the call pattern, but the medics changing the severity due to the cancelling of the calls is wrong. When a little boy calls 911 and hangs up and dispatch calls back to find everything ok, the police still check it out, JUST TO BE 100% SURE. Thats what the medics should have done regardless. I have been called out to many false alarms and the only ones that can cancel us is the police or the first responding medics. The man cancelled the call because he was unable to walk out there and tried to toughen it out. Well he's not the doctor nor medic. Him and his wife don't have any medical equipment to find out what is wrong, they don't know any better. That's why it is our job to advise them the consiquences and possible outcome. WE ARE THEIR GUIDANCE.
-
Permalink Reply by blair4630 on
-
As a technical note, I am not sure (but believe) that this was in fact Pittsburgh EMS, which is not privately owned. It is a 3rd servcie model, they also do all of the technical, water, and heavy rescue in the city with crossed-trained paramedics. It's a little different than you see in most places.
-
Permalink Reply by Ted C Hall on
-
On the surface it seems like a Bad Thing here.
After all we've got a duty to respond to any call, and a responsibility to the community at large to do our best work..
On the other hand...
I've never been in an ambulance that had adequate cold weather gear to survive crossing a bridge covered with so much snow that it was impassable by vehicles. Never seen any packable gear that would let a responder carry it a quarter mile over rough terrain... and not seen a single pair of snowshoes. And getting out with the patient would be even tougher.
Since I live in Montana I'm a little hesitant to criticize anyone who refuses to go forth through the worst snowstorm of something like a century without even the gear to keep themselves alive. Much less extract a patient in freezing weather...
We have tourists freeze to death (or have to rescue them if they left information about where they were going and when to expect them back) in the SPRING... Daytime temps in the 60s and nighttime in the 20-30s aren't unusual till Summer when they move up to 30-40s.
I've personally lashed a Stokes Basket to a toboggan and with four other rescuers dragged a nice pregnant lady about that twice far to rendezvous with an ambulance crew. There was about two feet of fresh snow, a light snowfall, and temps of 28-32 degrees that afternoon.
That was an April in Southern California when an unexpected storm trapped hundreds of visitors on on a mountain less than 80 miles from Los Angeles.
Hundreds of Police, Fire, and Military folks (I was one of the latter) spent two days getting the folks who'd gone up for an afternoon, or overnight stay and found themselves trapped with no food, water, oradequate clothing and two to three feet of snow blocking their car from carrying them to safety.
For this crew, getting themselves stranded away from the vehicle and becoming ANOTHER group needing rescue would have cut down the number of emergency crews available to help other folk and tied up other units to do the rescue. Not to mention losing their rig's services until they were recovered.
Without a LOT more information I'm not inclined to question the professional decisions of that (those) crews.
Morally I can't find it in me to expect an urban ambulance crew to brave the risks of getting in, providing care, carrying a patient (known to be unable to walk themselves) back to the rig, and do it all without unreasonable danger to themselves AND the patient...
In our area "Backcountry EMT" types are specially trained in survival and extraction from wilderness areas, as well as their regular BLS skills...
Their GEAR is up to the challenge though, and they get plenty of practice provided by optimists who don't believe Montana will kill them if they aren't careful.
It's a tough call, I wasn't there, and I'd have to know the whole story to condemn any crew who refused that risk out of hand...
Our fire crews would more than likely have gotten in there IF we weren't tasked elsewhere... but we have the training and equipment available to do it safely. Almost all of the special gear needed belonging to the hunters, packers and fishermen in the Company, it's NOT hanging in the barn with the trucks...
Bottom line, you have to make the best call and that involves bringing back live, healthy, rescuers as well as the patient...
Anybody got more details than that article gave???
-
Permalink Reply by Oldman on
-
And now for something to really get your blood boiling. While the recent snows have been historic, one would think that it NEVER snows in the Northeast. They either don't care, or they are the other name for a cat.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/03/AR2...
-
Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
-
This is unbelievable! Here's a line from the story: "Paramedics or firefighters will now be required to go to a caller's door." WHEN HAVE WE NOT BEEN REQUIRED TO GO TO THEIR DOOR?????????????????
I hope everyone who dropped the ball on this one is severely disciplined.
-
Permalink Reply by Beverly on
-
Since when can we pick and choose how much effort we will put into pt. care? Yes, there was alot of snow but how about contacting the DPW and having them gain access to the pts. street? I have been on several calls where we have had to have a plow truck escort (now granted I live in the boonies) and even if there was a little wait for the plow truck it certainly wouldn't have been days.
There truly seems to be a bigger problem here, we have seen several incidents over the last months of apathy in the fire and EMS service, the NY pregnant woman who died after medics wouldn't treat her because they were on break, the woman who died in NC (or SC sorry) when no one went to the house after not seeing anything showing, this case and I'm sure there are others unreported or underreported.
Why do we have this problem? Are we overworked/underpaid or not paid at all (vols.)? Are our resources overtaxed? Have we taken in people who fail to see this as a committment and just see it as a paycheck? Or as a country are we just accepting the "do the minimum to get by" attitude?
I think these are symptoms of a bigger disease running rampant and we really need to treat it aggresively. Hold people accountable for their actions or lack thereof, keep in mind that just because you can pass the test doesn't mean you can "pass the test", offer resources for employees who are feeling burned out, reward those who go above and beyond, a word of praise and appreciation is worth so much more than you think.
On the other hand....
Unfortunately the few "bad" responses a year will always receive more publicity than the hundreds of thousands of good responses each day. When someone dies it always garners more attention than the lol with a 3 day old fx finger that we transport from the nh at 0300 cheerfully and listen to her ask over and over and over "where are you taking me? why can't I go back to bed?" So, while there seems to be more "bad" responses it is also possible that in todays instant info world there is just more reporting and public information?
In closing...
To everyone who goes out everyday and puts themselves on the line, gives it all they have and sometimes their lives....GOOD JOB, THANK YOU, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
To everyone who thinks this is just a paycheck...find your nearest McDonalds, Burger King, whatever and put in an application because there your bad day will only ruin someones lunch not their life.
-
-
Sad story ladies and gentlemen! This just goes to show you that no matter how good we think we are, or how good our system is, if we do not continually strive to be better, eventually the system will break down.
Who were the supervisors on duty at those calls? The medical supervisors, the dispatch supervisors...They must share the blame. Afterall, its their watch. How many years of experience did the handlers of these calls have? Lots of questions. Dispatchers who failed to recognise the relationship between the multiple calls, despite the fact that it was overly busy, there must have been some red flags, which obviously were not the right shade of red to jump out and get some attention at the dispatch office. But, even if they did notice and did everything right, would this have changed the outcome? I don't think it would have in this case. The medics were lazy and simply unmotivated to do the job they were supposed to do.
-
Permalink Reply by Matthew Powers on
-
Good point Ted. I think there is far too much criticism on some of these message boards with only 1 sided information. There are 2 sides to every story and people that are suppose to be objective on the job tend to take the word of the media. There are reasons why the media only has 1 side of the information. We are in a lawsuit happy world and the participants need to protect themselves.
We are in fire/ems, bad things are going to happen. Not everything is going to be apparent on the surface. I have had to defend my actions when others thought they knew all the answers and it is hard to overcome someones initial impression. Give these guys there day to defend themselves. We have our entire lives to criticize them if they are at fault.
- ‹ Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- Next ›
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
