Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dave on September 12, 2008 at 3:05pm

"The video you are talking about is from a fire prevention open house demonstration with two newbies with NO experience or training. They had performed a dry run of what was supposed to happen before and without any training, they only knew what they had seen before as firefighters go in with gear and don't get burned. So that is an extremely bad example for this post."

I disagree, This video shows exactly my point!! They entered the structure and was in for 13 seconds. Without a hood they never would have been able to enter the structure.....the pain they would have felt would have told them not to!! The hood masked the heat and allowed them to enter the structure for 13 seconds. I have seen how the hood has masked the heat, I have been in buildings in training with a hood and in a fire with the same conditions without a hood and the difference is clear....the hood does mask heat and gives you a false sence of security. My two cents, agree to disagree, but my opinions are based on my experiences.

Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on September 12, 2008 at 3:20pm

OK, I have made my comment on this...and after very little thought I find it hard to believe that we are even discussing it....It is irresponsible and down right wrong to even let some people think it is ok to go without the proper gear....Our equipment has been designed and tested to provide the maximum amount of safety in a very hostile environment....I know...us oldtimers(myself included) have some ingrained habits that are hard to break....BUT, letting a probie or even a junior member see us doing it "our way" encourages them to do the same....I remember the days of riding the tailboard...does that mean it is ok to do it now..? Why not get rid of the hose lines....?? Hey they used to use bucket brigades didn't they...? I know its silly to even mention it...but as a ery wise man once said "You either learn from history or you are detined to relive it."...Lets do the right thing....wear your PPE and wear it properly...if not for you then for the others that may benefit from your example...Stay safe and always keep the faith....Paul

Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on September 12, 2008 at 3:49pm

Dave,

That video isn't really pertinent here, and here's why.
The reason that those guys went into that structure was a combination of inexperience, stupidity, and training officer negligence.

Inexperience, because any firefighter that had ever been to a structure fire with that much heat in that small of a space would not have entered, regardless of what he/she was wearing.

Stupidity, because they didn't stop and ask anyone if they were supposed to be there, and stupidity on the part of whoever was in charge and let them do it.

Training officer negligence, because no responsible training officer would let two unsupervised rookies make that kind of entry under any conditions.

The "no hood arguement" as a way to prevent stupidity, or to shield officers from negligent behavior is a pretty ineffective insurance policy.

Permalink Reply by Dave on September 12, 2008 at 6:21pm

Stupid?? Yes, it was a stupid move, But you still have not gotten my point. The fact that they had been able to make entry into that area was because of the gear! Would a experienced pereson know that in noway should they have even attempted to go into that condition?? Yes, but yet who was the nitwit that opened the door for them?? The other problem is this, the experienced members are leaving the fire service in large numbers and being replaced by new unexperienced firefighters. With this we will all see officers with little to no fire experience in all ranks. To gain real experience you need to do this work, but yet we have people with a small amount of fires under them leading and writting articles. So what we have is inexperienced firefighters with no fire duty expected to rely on real life experience they dont have and we give them gear that will mask all thier senses. So when they do feel the increase in heat thru the Hood and adrenaline...dont forget that adrenaline...they are too far in, and BAM we read about them on close calls saying how they had been saved because they wore there PPE, when infact that could have been avoided with a little less encapsulation. Been to many a fires, not one time have I wished I had a hood, but many times was I thankful i could feel that rapid increase in heat and avoided a bad situation. You can agree to disagree, but my real fire experience tells me to keep doing as I do, and not fall for the hood is my savior!

Stay safe
Dave

Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on September 12, 2008 at 6:39pm

Well then let's just put it this way....#1...The safety officer either didn't exist or wasn't doing his job.....and #2...If I am on Safety and someone shows up without the proper gear they AREN'T going in....period.....I don't want to be the one to tell someones spouse or mother that their son either got hurt or isn't coming home because of improper gear. I don't care who says what...you will NEVER convince me that cutting corners is acceptable.....the old.."we always did it this way" doesn't hold any water...and I find it totally irresponsible to preach or make excuses to the contrary.........Stay safe.....Paul

Permalink Reply by Jeanine on September 12, 2008 at 8:39pm

I am completly speechless when I read this. Are you kidding me, going into a fire without a nomex hood. Man, that is just totally and utterly INSAINE!!!! Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't be caught dead without mine in a fire. Maybe it's because it has been hammered into my head that PPE is coat, pants, boots, HOOD, gloves, helmet, and SCBA. I understanad the whole "find the fire fast" and time is of the essence thing but what the hell happened to safety??? In my trainings its always who the hell cares if the place burns down as long as we stay SAFE and keep others safe. You can always rebuild a building, you cant rebuild a human or buy a new body because they were injured or even worst, killed in a fire because they refused to follow the saefty rules set fourth by NFPA for a reaseon, not just for thier entertainment. Im sorry man if this seems harsh but you wanted honesty and this is it.

Permalink Reply by Alan on September 12, 2008 at 8:54pm

If its a working fire, then I put my hood on. The only time I don't wear it, is on accidents and medical assists. I've been in working fires before and I could still feel the heat even through the hood. Be safe out there and think what you are doing.

Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on September 12, 2008 at 9:00pm

Uh-oh, does that mean the crotchless bunkers I'm wearing now aren't NFPA compliant, even with an aluminized thong?

Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on September 12, 2008 at 9:10pm

Not only is a nomex hood required by NFPA standards, but in addition to keeping the hot embers (as opposed to cold embers) from going down your neck, it keeps your skin protected from the carcinogens created by the products of combustion. How smart do you have to be to want to protect yourself from an early death? That's my 2 cents...stay safe!

Permalink Reply by firefighter1and2 on September 12, 2008 at 9:18pm

the dept im on you got to wear it or you dont play, you get to sit at the truck, also if something happened to you and the fire dept insurance ask if you had all your ppe on and you say no so long goes the help financially.

Permalink Reply by Wolfy Lang on September 12, 2008 at 11:41pm

I hope you tell your two cute kids and the dogs and your wife that you love them every day when you roll out when the tones go off, because if you refuse to wear the proper gear required by every fire department in the US of A, you will soon be famous. Victor Isler and Justin Monroe here in Salisbury did everything right, by the book, as they were trained and taught back on 7 March 08, and it took almost a week for the stations to go assignment complete while waiting for their bodies to return from the medical examiners office.

You want to "find a fire faster" ... its called a FLIR (forward looking infrared radar) or more commonly, THERMAL IMAGER. They run about a third the cost of the coffin you will be buried in, and about half the fine your department will recieve from OSHA when they find out that your crispy critter corpse wasnt wearing one.

I pity your department for having someone on their staff who has such a blatent disregard for personal safety, and I will be looking on the web to send your post to them, just so they know that you are publicly BEING STUPID. When was the last time you attended a Fire Fighters funeral? Had to stand there in turnouts and salute while the Engines, draped in dark purple bunting, roll past you, with the bodies of your fellow fire fighters are on the back of them, tears rolling down your face and the faces of those who are standing beside you? Again, THEY did EVERYTHING right, but the monster got them anyway. You're just asking for trouble.

One other thing, I dont know about Michigan, but the state of North Carolina pays a death benefit of somewhere around 150,000 Dollars (I could be wrong on the amount but its that substantial) and the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT pays around 250,000 dollars IF YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. If you SCREW UP against policy, your kids, dogs, wife, and any other beneficiarys DONT GET SQUAT! Is a 35 dollar piece of clothing with half a million?

I am glad you aren't down here where I have to worry about you being behind me on the line, but then again, WE ARE ALL SAFETY OFFICERS on the scene and here in the South, we don't allow blatent stupidity on the fire ground or training ground.

Peace and (hopefully many) Fair Journeys

Wolfy

Permalink Reply by T.J. on September 13, 2008 at 12:03am

or maybe layed out on the floor like we were..................................:)

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