Vallejo Ventilation Video

Opening up the roof in Vallejo.

The video below is of a house fire in Vallejo, California. As we can see, from a limited view and without supporting information, lines are stretched and operating and the roof over the garage is about to be ventilated. Remember having more than one way off also means ladders at different locations. Plan your cut(s) so that you can work back towards your egress. Take a look at some of the articles from FireRescue Magazine/FirefighterNation.com on truck company operations.

We’re not specifically critiquing this incident, but using it as a prompt; why vent over garage fires if the hole you cut might only be half the size of the natural opening (garage door removed)?

Back-to-Basics Truck Training
Simple training evolutions to improve your crew’s truck skills
Jim McCormack

"One of the most common excuses for not conducting training is “we don’t have a training facility.” Give me a break! If you have a firehouse, then you have a facility."

Truck Companies’ Ability to Focus
Truck company success hinges on the crew’s ability to stay focused on the fireground
Jim McCormack

"We train every day in order to maintain our skills. (The key word here is skills.) But like everyone else, we don’t go to as many fires as we’d like."

The Why & When of Ventilation
What crews should know about when to begin ventilation—& why it’s so vital in the first place
Randy Frassetto

"Ventilation is too often an afterthought, only brought up when an interior company is driven to the ground from high heat and low visibility—and then frantically requested."

Bill Carey is the daily news and blog manager for Elsevier Public Safety (FireRescue Magazine/Firefighter Nation, JEMS and LawOfficer sites.) Bill also manages the FireEMSBlogs.com network and is a former volunteer lieutenant with the Hyattsville Volunteer Fire Department in Prince George's County, Maryland.

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on July 15, 2012 at 10:01pm

Pointing out silly "what-if's" has benefit to the discussion. Your idea that people are going to replace a solid door with a flimsy one, and that you missed the obvious point that they'd have to pay for the new door when they could just leave the original one in place at no cost - is silly.

I never said they do that. YOU said the doors in your wordly travels were thin cardboard like construction. I said they are normally fire rated doors where I live. But, that there is nothing to stop anyone from swapping that door out once they take occupancy with whatever type of door they want. Not that they would do it, but that they COULD do it.

Nice try at bending my words again. Sorry no points will be awarded.

I didn't claim that the door between THIS house and the garage IS cardboard, I said I've seen houses where that was the case. In the places I discussed, they had no fire code, because the local government didn't adopt one. As usual, you are putting words in my mouth, and once again doing exactly what you claim I do. Don't you get tired of your appalling double standards?

No double standard here. I have plainly said over and over and over that the first line MUST go inside to the doorway between the living space and the garage. It must go there to see if the fire has breached either the door or the wall. The type of door is irrelevant, whether the door was left open, or it was breached, or the wall was breached is what is important.

What I find apalling is the lack of fire codes. There really is no excuse at all for that.

Don't you get tired of your simpleminded insistance that every point I make must somehow be about where I currently live?

Don't you get tired of being an argumentive pompous ass?

I've already pointed out to you that I've worked in several states and run mutual aid calls in several others. The codes and building practices where I live do not limit what I've seen earlier in my career in other states, nor does it limit my observations when I travel or when I do basic research on the World Wide Web. I've also been on the job long enough to have seen several versions of Frank Brannigan's and Tom Brennan's building construction presentations, with all of the oddities and modifications they saw in their extensive careers. As stated, I don't limit my thinking to my comfort zone or to my current local situation.

Ah, listing your credentials somehow isn't as pathetic as you said listing mine was. Seems like the double standard you were whining about. I too have been on the job a long time, 35 years to be exact.

I don't think you have a comfort zone because you sure as hell seem threatened by me. You comment on alomost every post I make on this forum. WHY Ben? I don't have any beef with you other than you have to be right and think you have to prove me wrong. Good luck with that...

Once again, the Wisconsin Wide Web seems to have let you down.

Snottiness seems to be your leading reason for being here. Pathetic really.

I've seen all kinds of owner alterations in buildings from SFDs to strip malls and big boxes - some according to code, some not, and a few actually exceeding the code.

Then why argue against me when I say that is ALWAYS a possibility when a home owner takes occupancy? Does arguing with EVERYTHING I SAY make you feel cool? Or tough? Or manly? Sorry once again no points will be awarded.

If the homeowners in your area are really removing solid, fire-rated doors and spending the money to replace them with flimsy, non-code doors, then your area must be populated by people with no sense of economic rationality.

Okay Ben, show me where I said that. Because I never said it. In fact I never even said we had those kind of doors here. YOU were the one that brought up the whole cardboard door topic in the first place not me.

Once again you outright LIED about what I said. You are really pathetic. You don't like what I said so you go on a huge lie and double speak campaign to discredit me. WOW! You are really a internet tough guy.

My point was simple, but I was pretty sure that you wouldn't get it and that you'd have some thin-skinned reaction to having the obvious pointed out to you.

Your point is it is YOUR way or it is wrong. Funny how you like to say that to me, about me, but can't see it in yourself.

Unsurprisingly, that's exactly what occurred.

Just more arrogant blather from you.

Seriously a little time away from the internet with your friends or family might be good for you. My family grilled out tonight. We made pork chops, corn on the cob, and zucchini on the grill. Had a nice family meal and some Margaritas and some good family time. Nice and relaxing. I highly recomend it.

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on July 15, 2012 at 10:20pm

Fire Behavior 101 - Heat rises. That is obvious in the video from the fire rolling out of the garage door opening and the eventual roof vent hole.

Um, duh? Do you have something of value to add here or do you just like to sound cool?

It's easy to aim a solid stream into a 6 or 8-inch opening from the partially-open garage door. The water will take care of the flashover, and if the nozzleman knows what he is doing, the water will bounce off the roof, disperse, and stop the fuel pyrolysis. I've done it and I've seen it done - in several departments in at least four different states.

Wow! Several departments in 4 states? WOWSER am I impressed. Since my experiences don't count why should yours? The words double standard just jump off the page.

Look injecting water into the upper atmosphere can indeed slow or stop flashover. Spraying water into the atmosphere, with a vertical vent may cool the atmosphere, but it will never extinguish the seat of the fire.

With the volume of fire in the garage, the small vent hole will vent some of the steam, but it won't vent it all at once. That will help stop the flashover.

If it hasn't already occurred at this fire.

Either way, that will make things a lot more tenable for the interior team, since the alternative is to have them face high heat pushed by flashover.

If it hasn't already occurred. The interior team would be pushing the fire. heat, smoke, and steam, away from them and out the vent hole.

Okay in this scenario are we dealing with my idea that the door and wall are fire rated so the interior team can sit in the living space and watch for fire breaking through? Or your scenario with the cardboard door and fire entering the living space already? Because you seem to dan e back and forth between my scenario and your own when it is convenients.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on July 16, 2012 at 9:05pm

Fire Behavior 101 - Heat rises. That is obvious in the video from the fire rolling out of the garage door opening and the eventual roof vent hole.

Um, duh? Do you have something of value to add here or do you just like to sound cool?

Given that you were ignoring the fire rolling out the top of the garage door opening, it made me wonder if you were aware that heat rises. I was just checking.

Wow! Several departments in 4 states? WOWSER am I impressed. Since my experiences don't count why should yours? The words double standard just jump off the page. Not at all - just proving that you'd lose the bet about the "wider perspective". I'm not claiming that my experience makes my viewpoint pertinent. I rely on physics for that.

...thus making the house interior more tenable for firefighters and potential victims, regardless of whether the interior garage door is solid, flimsy, or open, just as I previously stated.

With the volume of fire in the garage, the small vent hole will vent some of the steam, but it won't vent it all at once. That will help stop the flashover.

If it hasn't already occurred at this fire.

This is where I repeat "Did you actually WATCH the video?" Obviously the FD in question didn't stop the flashover with an attack through the garage door previous with or simultanously with the vent hole attempts. Are you REALLY that oblivious to the obvious?

Either way, that will make things a lot more tenable for the interior team, since the alternative is to have them face high heat pushed by flashover.

If it hasn't already occurred. The interior team would be pushing the fire. heat, smoke, and steam, away from them and out the vent hole. It didn't. Watch the video.

B.S. The transitional attack will make the interior more tenable, regardless. Killing the seat of the fire makes things better. Doing it quickly is a good thing. If you disagree, I'd refer you to Lt. Ray McCormick, FDNY or Chief Alan Brunacini, Phoenix FD (Ret) In this case, the quickest way to kill the seat of the fire is through the top of the garage door. That also makes is easy and quick to relocate that line to the front door, have the hose team mask up, then go interior to make sure the fire hasn't extended into the living space. Using a tactic that works regardless of the unknown interior situation is a better choice than a one-trick pony that counts on a fire-rated door that may not be present, or that may not be closed.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on July 16, 2012 at 9:19pm

Complete, nonsensical B.S. from beginning to end.

Your inability to grasp the obvious is, well, obvious.

You keep claiming that I lied. It doesn't bother me, since anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that your claim is B.S. You're not doing wonders for your credibility here, junior.

You are going to your chronic, empty bluster when it's obvious that you missed the obvious, and that your ego won't let you admit it.

Given that you continue to ignore obvious facts about the video and other obvious facts such as your assumption that the interior garage door is a rated door doesn't do much to make your case that I'm wrong.

Nice backstroke with the lame idea that the owner replaced the fire-rated doors with a flimsier door, though....LMAO.

And Don, the real arrogance here is yours, since not only are you claiming that your way is the only correct one, but you're trying to tell me how to run my personal life.

That's obssessive. Feel free to quit stalking me at any time.

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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on July 16, 2012 at 10:56pm

Buh Bye Ben.

I have grown weary of your inability to read, comprehend, and debate, without lying, manipulating, taking out of context, and outright Bull Shitting.

Enjoy yourself. I am assuming you will continue your attacks.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on July 17, 2012 at 8:17pm

You apparently enamored of silly babble - it seems to be all you are capable of posting lately.

I see you're still claiming that I lied, without being able to show anywhere that I actually did that. Good luck finding it, since I didn't.

As for lying, you demonstably have done that - and lots of it, it has been directed at me, and you've done it for weeks.

The evidence - You flatly stated in the debate about Exterior Firefighter Certification that you were not going to respond to me any more.

That makes every post you've directed at me since then a lie. It's also stalkerish and obsessive.

The really funny thing about this is that you exemplify everything you've tried to pin on me.

Arrogance: You dismiss everything that is different from how you and your departments do things as if it doesn't matter, simply because you haven't seen it or aren't comfortable with it.

You attack how other firefighters and fire departments do things by claiming that they lack dedication simply because they have financial, manpower, or community support restraints with which you are not familiar.

Worst of all, you have the temerity to tell my how to run my personal life.

Those three things are the epitome of arrogance.

Worst of all is your inability to consider anything but a one-trick pony, traditional attack that doesn't take several obvious variables into account, while claiming that a different, flexible attack that DOES take all of the variables is either a lie or double-speak. Your inability to comprehend creates neither of those things on my part.

Worst of all, you missed an obvious point on your size-up of the video. On a real fireground, that's extremely dangerous. And you wonder why I bring it up?

And, as I thought, you make lots of empty accusations, but you can't back a single one of them up. Empty bluster, as I said. It doesn't really do anything for your credibility, yanno?