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Shane Ray's "Rethinking Volunteer Firefighter Certification" article will make some waves...
The new superintendant of the South Carolina Fire Academy asks some tough question and offers some creative solutions to the problem of volunteer firefighter certification and just what that should mean.
Here's the article: http://www.firefighternation.com/article/training-0/rethinking-volu...
It is thought-provoking, to say the least. What do you guys think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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You can tell tone from internet posts??? Interesting, since most of the people I know tell me that they have difficulty determining tone since there is no voice, facial expression, or body language in a text post.
I also find it interesting that you singled me out after I defended you when someone else attacked one of your posts. A little inconsistent there, perhaps?
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"Let me be brutally clear...If you support the EXTERIOR certification for firefighters that will NEVER go inside, then you MUST support FF1 for those that will. Your argument that FF1 is useless for YOUR Exterior FFs just doesn't hold water because you have said your Exterior certification would replace FF1 for your Exterior only guys."
Two problems with that. First, you are making an assertion that one necessarily follows the other when that is not the case. The two things are unrelated, and support for or disagreement with one does not presuppose the same support for or disagreement with the other.
The second is simple fact. Bob doesn't have to do anything or hold any specific opinion simply because you insist that he "MUST'.
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Don, really?
"I hate to do this, but I have to answer your lack of knowledge on Wisconsin Fire Training." Really?
"1) No one, John or I, said that the 60 hour ELFF course met ALL the requirements of FF1. It does however meet the BASIC requirements under Wisconsin Satutes to allow a firefighter to do interior firefighting." I didn't say that either. In fact, I specifically said that if I understood you and John correctly, that the ELFF (or whatever you call the basic class) did NOT meet the FF1 standard. Thanks for confirming what I said. Here is what I said, cut and pasted: "If I understand your and John's earlier posts correctly, the Wisconsin basic firefighter is a 60-hour program that also does not meet all of the FFI standards." (Emphasis supplied)
"2) The 60 hour basic course is 2/3 thirds of the hourly and course content requirement for State of Wisconsin FF1 Certification. If a FF wishes to become FF1, or is required to do so by their department, they then add on the 36 hour FF1 Module to finish the required course work." So what? It still doesn't meet ALL of the FF1 standards, and thus is "watered down" in exactly the same sense that an Exterior FF class is "watered down". The only difference is one of degree, since neither one fully meets the NFPA FF 1 standards.
"3) In the State of Wisconsin the MINIMUM requirement to be allowed to work on the fireground is the 60 hour Entry Level Firefighter course. You are not even supposed to work in the hot zone until at least the first 30 hour module is completed."
....none of which applies anywhere outside Wisconsin. Further, you did not explain how Wisconsin defines "Hot Zone". Both the NFPA and OSHA define "Hot Zone" as an IDLH atmosphere. Those definitions mean "Interior". If Wisconsin defines it differently than that, it would be helpful if you'd give us the Wisconsin definition. If Wisconsin defines Hot Zone the same way as OSHA and the NFPA do, then the Wisconsin 60-hour class can be considered overkill.
"4) Wisconsin has 2 tracts of fire training, the basic tract, and the certification tract. The basic tract has Entry Level FF, Entry Level Driver Operator, Entry Level Officer. The Certification tract has FF1, FF2, Driver Operator Pumper, Driver Operator Aerial, Officer 1&2, Instructor 1-4, and Inspector." Most of that isn't pertinent. We're talking about only the ELFF class and the fact that it doesn't meet the FF1 certification standard even for WI.
"There is no NATIONAL Exterior FF standard either." I've never said that there was. This discussion was specifically about South Carolina's consideration of an Exterior FF standard, the fact that Montana has one, and the fact that other states are considering it.
"So do tell how anyone would support that?" Straw man logical fallacy - I didn't say that, so I have no need to defend it. On the other hand, you could use your imagination, or you could just look around at some of the other responses in this thread.
"It seems to be whzt you and Bobby are pushing for." No it doesn't. Our conversations were clearly limited to STATE Exterior FF certification.
"To be brutally frank, your insistence that there is no National Standard for FF1 is ludicrous." To be brutally frank, that's B.S.
I did NOT say that there is no national STANDARD for FF1 as you claim. In fact, I've discussed FF1's inclusion as part of the NFPA 1001 standard more than once in this discussion. What I actually DID say was that there is no national CERTIFICATION for FF1. There isn't. A quick example - three adjacent states, Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina all have different certification agencies. Florida issues their own state certification, Georgia is a ProBoard state, and South Carolina is an IFSAC state. That pattern is repeated all over the country, and in some states, you can get both ProBoard and IFSAC certfication for the same class - Maryland and Connecticut both issue those dual certifications. All of that adds up to "No National Certification".
Once again, you are confusing NFPA standards with some other entitie's certification. Once again, you should be ashamed that you don't appear to understand the difference.
"The NFPA has a standard for that and the skills are listed in all the various brands of Essentials books."
However, the NFPA doesn't have a CERTIFICATION for that, since they do not grant certification, which is what is actually under discussion. The books don't grant a CERTIFICATION, either.
Do you really not understand the difference between standards and certifications, or are you intentionally using one to argue about the other?
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I disagree with you on this one. I believe that FF certification should be mandatory, and at the state level. just understand that there are different levels of certification, including Exterior Firefighter and non-firefighting Driver/Operator.
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Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
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Ben to your response below.
Yes you can tell a difference in tone. It really is not that difficult when you have been reading someones post for a while.
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FF Walz,
That isn't accurate, and here's why. You really can't tell tone in internet responses, since you are missing the vast majority of the message (eye contact, body language, voice inflection) that are communicated in face-to-face conversations.
You THINK you know the tone, but you really can't be sure.
As for devil's advocate, I generally don't do that. I do like to consider all sides of an issue. That means that I like to be open-minded, I like to see debate on the issues, not personal attacks or unsupported opinion touted as if it were factual, or false dilemmas or other logical issues carried on as if they made sense.
The other thing is that there was at least one person who got very nasty and attacked me personally in this debate, and you gave him a free pass. Isn't that a double standard on your part?
Think about it...
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Ben,
I hope this wan't me you are accusing of attacking you. Because if calling you a ParaGod gets your panties in a bunch you wouldn't last long in my career FDs house.
The other thing is that there was at least one person who got very nasty and attacked me personally in this debate, and you gave him a free pass. Isn't that a double standard on your part?
Think about it...
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I wasn't referring specifically to that comment - that one was just silly and diversionary when you either couldn't or wouldn't respond factually.
I don't wear panties, so it is impossible for me to get them into a bunch.
Apparently you have different undergarment choices when you're at work than do I. Does that interfere with your ability to tell the difference between a standard and a certification?
That might be the case, since you've confused those things at least twice in this conversation, and have been noticibly silent when it was pointed out.
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Ben,
Thanks for proving you can't help but be an arrogant cock.
I haven't confused anything and I have been warned that you are just an asshole that likes to argue. I believe you don't give 2 shits about this topic and are just feeding the frenzy by posting absolutely ludicrous comments.
If you are in fact a career firefighter would you support exterior only positions on that FD? Because I can tell you my career FD has ZERO exterior only positions. Even our MPOs train and maintain their skills for interior work. I have had MPOs on several occasions park their rigs, gear up, mask up, and go interior with us. So which is it? Is the exterior thing a great idea for the entire fire service? Or is it as many have said a pathetic attempt to be all inclusive?
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LMAO...this from the guy that claims I wouldn't last long in his career house?
You are continuing the personal attacks - unsurprising, by now.
Those add nothing to the conversation and they are violations of the user agreement.
I really don't care what secret opinion somone else allegedly told you, but based on your track record in this thread, I wonder if that wasn't an imaginary friend warning you.
Given some of the confused things you've posted in this thread, your definition of "ludicrous" isn't reliable.As for caring about the topic, I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't think it was important. It certainly is for my state and my state fire academy...where I'm an adjunct instructor, BTW. Once the Exterior FF class is developed, I may be one of the instructors who teaches it.
I am in fact a career firefighter. Our standard is that we hire mostly people who already have IFSAC FFII or who have another FFII certification and who can challenge the IFSAC FFII test. We do hire people who don't have FFII when they fit our situational mix. Those people attend our fire academy's FFII program on a full-time basis for 3 months prior to being assigned to a company. All of our new firefighters have one year to complete an extensive list of qualifications including state and national EMT-B, a state emergency vehicle operator's license, rope rescue and water rescue classes, and a host of our internal training programs including FF Survival/Rapid Intervention, Chainsaw Operations, FF Water Survival, Public Education qualifications, Pre-Planning, Thermal Imaging, NIMS courses, and a comprehensive skills proficiency checklist. We routinely use our apparatus operators for interior operations and as part of the rapid intervention crew. All of that is in addition to a large number of orientation requirements including specific orientation to department procedures, SOGs, and equipment.
However, I'm not so unrealistic as to believe that every department in my state, let alone in the country can meet the standards we have locally. That would be silly. That's the opposite of arrogant, BTW. I'm not demanding that anyone else do it my way...as you did.
When you say "which is it", you're once again creating a false dilemma. You want a black-and-white, no gray area FF qualification map. Real life isn't like that. Places that don't have the resources may have an all-exterior firefighting force, they may have a mix leaning toward interior firefighters with some exterior personnel or driver-only guys, they may have a 50-50 mix, or whatever their local situation dictates.
"As many have said..." Straw man. No one here has said that except for you.I'm not sure that there are any mandatory certifications that are good for every fire department in my state, let alone for the entire fire service. I've already told you that the certification under consideration applies only to my state. Is that really so difficult for you to understand. It seems that you still are confused, because you keep asking the same questions - questions that have been answered pretty bluntly. You also have not demonstrated that you understand the difference between a standard and a certification - in fact, you demonstrated in at least two places that you don't understand the difference.
If you're not confused, you could start by demonstrating it, rather than by claiming that you aren't. Go ahead, explain the difference instead of posting "standard" in reply to a conversation about "certification".
As for "all inclusive", that really is ludicrous. The fact is that having an Exterior Firefighter certification means that there are some people who can't achieve that certification, thus "all inclusive" isn't an option, regardless of where the bar is set.
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Ben,
Nice dodge of my very direct question. You like to hammer people for not answering your questions but you like to do the same thing all the time.
Here it is again. Would you support an Exterior only position on your career FD? You know, you have a guy for whatever reason decides going interior isn't his gig anymore and wants out of it. He is willing to pump or make hydrants, of be the OVM, or place ladders, but just can't bring himself to go inside anymore. Would you be okay with that? He is a member of your engine company, and not the assigned driver.
Standard: A set of proposed criteria required to meet a specific goal.Certification: A specific course that leads to meeting the criteria of the standard, usually ending in receiving a paper certificate, and in some locations a shoulder patch, denoting the standard met.
Like myself, and others, have stated, wanting to be something, including a firefighter doesn't make it so. You have to be able to do the job. And like it or not going interior is part of the job, perhaps the biggest part.
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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Don,
I'm sort of following this thread. Are you and others basically saying that there should be no such thing as "exterior-only" firefighters? Or that there should be no such thing as a certification for exterior-only firefighters? Or that there should be no such thing as a community whose collective sense of civic duty allows for nothing more than an exterior-only fire department?
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