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Texting on calls
I would like some feedback on an event that really made my blood boil. Tell me if I'm over reacting.
I was on a rescue call for a rollover yesterday, one person with injuries, we assisted the ambulance in loading the patient and sent them on their way to our local hospital. We returned to the station and were paged out for a transfer from our local nursing home to the hospital. We went there for the patient, and took them to the hospital. I began filling out paperwork on our run sheets. The first crew was still up there with the rollover. One of the crew was "texting" just outside the first ER bed. This young EMT of ours also texts in the rig, and was warned not to on calls. I'm asking for feedback here. We are a paid vol dept and I feel there is NO room for this while on a run, period. If I'm out of bounds here let me know. If I'm in the right I plan on bringing this up at our next fire meeting and address it.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Michael McCarthy on
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Totally unprofessional during a call at any point. Enroute to, on the scene, enroute to the hospital or at the hospital. Wait until you go available--have someone else drive and text your life away. If he is a paid employee he would get one and only one warning - if he is a volunteer then a officer goes up to him and takes the phone away and tells him he will get it back at the end of the call. Then I would address as to the reason why its unprofessional to him. If it happens again then more serious steps will be taken.
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Permalink Reply by Andrew on
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Yeah, we are responders, but our phones can be used as educational tools for educating future reponders, hence them being used as cameras to take pictures and video. And, as I said earlier, the phone should *NOT* be used on-scene when there is a job to do or patients are in need of care. As long as you're not hindering the operation, then what is the issue? Of course there is a general time and place (in this example, not standing next to the patient and texting). But if I am at a hospital, the patient has been transferred to the hospital staff and other personnel are handling paperwork, why can I not text in the hallway? Why, on scene at an MVA, can an MPO not send a quick text to their family to tell them his whereabouts when he doesn't show up for dinner?
As for my belief about the 1st Amendment, I am sorry that your perception is sour. Our amendments take precedent over everything, as long, as I stated before, there is no danger to personnel or patients. If you don't believe that the 1st Amendment is of any importance in this issue, then take your passport and fly to another country where such rights aren't granted. Honestly, that statement made me more angry than anything. My priorities are completely in balance; which, if you read my prior post, you can tell. Here, let me put it in a more simple list format for you so your mind can grasp it:
1. Patient Care/FF Operations
2. 1st Amendment
As for giving people ammunition to criticize - I said people will criticize ANYTHING. You can't even give away something these days without someone complaining. That was my point. Texting over a patient or next to their bed is bad, yes; but texting in a hospital hallway - What is the big deal?
One day we had a woman "complain" by yelling at our Chief because he blocked a side road to let our ladder truck out (ahead was congested due to other emergency apparatus). She screamed obscenities (racial, at that) and exclaimed that she paid our salaries. I didn't know we got paid - where do I pick up my paycheck? My point is people will complain about anything and everything these days. A cell phone out in the open on the sidelines of a call when their duties have already been fulfilled and no other help is necessary is NOT something that should be taken seriously. This is especially true since I am VOLUNTEERING *MY* time. I AM going to take *MY* time to text my family/friends/girlfriend so they know where *I* am when I am not home for dinner, or I am not at a location I said I'd be.
If a cell phone out in the open is the most potent ammunition the public has against your department, then I don't think you have anything to worry about.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Andrew,
You are very much wrong about your 1st amendment rights: If your department (vollie or paid) says that you can NOT take pictures/videos it is NOT a violation of any of your rights. You are working, regardless of vollie or not and your department has a RIGHT to decide what you may or may not do. If you don't like the rules, leave, no one is blocking the door. But to get as strident as you have about 1st Amendment rights suggests to me that you are one of those people who see government conspiracies around every corner.
You do NOT have a right to take pictures on the fireground if your department says you can NOT. You may be able to do it on the other side of the yellow tape but so long as you're wearing department gear and working (or standing around) a fire department scene, what they say goes. Bitch all you want but I can guaranty you that NO court would uphold your belief that you can do as you please on the fireground.
In fact, simply based on your comments in this discussion you seem obsessed both with and defending, your 1st Amendment rights. Instead, maybe you should be obsessed with just being a firefighter and let the buffs and wannabes worry about taking way cool pics. Gee...if you're lucky they might get one of you working.
Also, should the incident be, or turn out to be a crime scene, your camera or phone camera could be confiscated to preserve the chain of evidence. If you don't think that's a valid possibility then you might want to discuss that with your department or town attorney.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Zero texting policyis the only way.
Same goes for taking the self portraits. I saw one on this site of a medic in the back of a rig, and the caption even said they were transporting a pretty crook patient!
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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I briefly skimmed through the responses here so far and agree with a lot of them. Here is my big thing; the call is in progress until you get back to station, and you should be doing work related things and staying busy. If you are wearing the uniform, act accordingly. Dont be standing around the ER texting while your partner does the paper, there is equipment to be cleaned and checked, supplies to be replenished, and cleaning of the rig to be done. If that is all set than check the rig over, check the lights, check the oil, kick the tires, do something, hell, you could even help your partner with the paper. Even when driving back to quarters both partners should be alert and paying attention to the road and not texting their sweeties. I was in a rig a while ago after a bad call, on the way back my partner was driving and I was "Shotgun", I always scan my side of the road and communicate with the driver, and we ended up getting cut-off by a moron that almost ran us into either oncoming traffic or a telephone pole. My partner was able to steer through the narrow opening between the pole and another car and into a parking lot...We were both a bit shaken and needed to go in and have some coffee before continuing the ride home, but had we both not been alert we could have been involved in a big accident with multiple cars.
Be professional, use common sense, and be safe. If its your personal cell phone you shouldnt even pay attention to it while on calls, look at it when you get back to service and make your calls/texts on down time at the station. I used to hate to look around the ER in my area and see EMT's and drivers alike standing around, texting or gabbing on cell phones, interfering with ER nurses and getting in the way and making a bunch of noise...Wait till you clear and get back, unless its a family emergency it can wait. Just my opinion though.
Stay Safe
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"You are very much wrong about your 1st amendment rights: If your department (vollie or paid) says that you can NOT take pictures/videos it is NOT a violation of any of your rights"
Which is why I stated that the OP's department should set standards and policies regarding it. Otherwise, the member in question is technically not in the wrong.
"If you don't like the rules, leave, no one is blocking the door"
What a superficial statement - but I am not surprised. Rules and rules, and rules are meant to be placed for the safety of yourself and others - including patients. This is understandable. But has there ever been a rule that overshadowed personal rights? A rule that went too far? Or are the officers and administration in all fire departments do-gooders that can do no wrong? Are they impervious to fallacies? If so, then why are many policies and by-laws amended? Why are policies created and removed? This just goes to show that some policies are wrong, and there is room for debate and modifications for certain policies. You must be someone that believes every law on the books in every state (and federally) should be abided, and anyone that commits even an infraction should be incarcerated for not abiding by them. Ever go over the speed limit? I'm sure you have. And, for fun, here is a Snapple fact from my cap the other day - there is a city in Ohio (I believe it was Youngstown) that made it a crime to run out of gas. So, with your mentality, this is a LAW set in place, so it must be justified? Right. All rules, laws, procedures, policies and standards should be strictly interpreted, right? How about something called "discretion". In this situation the member with the phone didn't put anyone in danger in any way. He had no paperwork to do, and patient care had been transferred to hospital personnel at that point in time. His location of texting, as per OP - being next to a patient - was bad, but he didn't do anything malicious. If anything, tell him to move to a different location. Say it is inappropriate, but don't say texting on any scene or in the hospital is an atrocity altogether. Don't be so naive, please.
"You do NOT have a right to take pictures on the fireground if your department says you can NOT"
Um... Yes, I do. If it is my SoP's, then I understand, but there is nothing. As a department member, I find that irrelavant, as long as I have no duties to uphold and patient care is taken care of and the scene is safe.
The 1st Amendment is just a whole new facet to the argument. Anyone, and everyone, should have the unalienable American right to freedom of speech and the press - which includes taking pictures and video of scenes. I'm certain that there are videos on YouTube of structure fires where it was deemed an arson case. Arson is a crime, right? I believe it is. Well, according to NYS Penal Law is it, and there are videos from fire department personnel on scene and responding to these calls. Blasphemy?
But I understand where you're coming from. Luckily, in my department and in my general vicinty when it comes to mutual aids, we've had no problems with picture taking. Cell phones have never, to my knowledge, been an issue. I've taken pictures on MVA scenes after patient care has been established and the cars are disabled and/or moved. Once I even took a picture of an MVA where the driver was heavily intoxicated. Someone had put the bottle of Captain Morgan on top of the vehicles, with the label facing forward, the front of the car was crumpled from hitting a parked car (which flew across the street, even though it was in park, and subsequently hit a building). I figured it'd be a good anti-drunk driving picture. Sadly, it didn't come out well, quality-wise.
As for my obsession of taking care of my firefighting business - I do. I train with the department (I already have six this year), have made more than my fair share of calls, am taking the FDNY examination this year, have joined a committee within the fire department, etc. You don't know me... at all, so that was another comment that just shows your personality is, well... shallow and simple. I know you're knowledgable - I've seen your posts, but maybe you could use some assistance when it comes to your "people skills."
"Also, should the incident be, or turn out to be a crime scene, your camera or phone camera could be confiscated to preserve the chain of evidence. If you don't think that's a valid possibility then you might want to discuss that with your department or town attorney"
Understandable, although unlikely. We have photographers on scene for events that would be that big. I don't take pictures or video of anything that a normal person wouldn't be able to. No patients are ever in the picture. Plus, anything that big that warranted an immediate response, I doubt I'd have ample time to take pictures. A structure fire? I wouldn't sit there with my phone taking pictures or video, as there is a duty to uphold there. Plus, I don't carry my phone on fire calls, as I don't want it to get damaged. MVAs? It depends. I generally drive the ambulance, so if we're in a rush I don't have time to take a picture. EMS calls - never, as, well... there's no reason to, as there's a patient in the picture, and I don't take pictures of patients, even if they're entrapped in a vehicle or whatnot.
"Bitch all you want but I can guaranty you that NO court would uphold your belief that you can do as you please on the fireground"
I just want to make a response to this. I am not doing anything malicious or negligent. This statement makes it seem like I am texting my friends on a cardiac arrest call to say something along the lines of:
"omg @ a cardiac arrest call! boutz 2 do CPR! BRB!"
Plus, I highly doubt anything regarding taking pictures on scene would even warrant me going to court. What crime am I committing? Unless I am texting while driving an ambulance and crash it, I don't really foresee me going to court for any reason for utilizing my cell phone, even if it WERE against my SoP's.
Also, you know, it's funny - people complaining about such a miniscule issue. But overall, it's an issue where rights are diminishing, no matter who you are. You cannot say or do anything now without being scrutinized. Look at 9/11 Truthers stating that 9/11 was a setup. Do I believe it was? No. But do I believe in the right to say whatever you want, within reason (Ex: Screaming "Fire!" in a crowded building or something along those lines should always be prohibited). I don't agree with them, but we should be able to uphold our constitutional freedoms.
As I also said in a previous post: If someone texting at a hospital is your departments biggest issue, then you've nothing to worry about. It's when you have accusations of people stealing from houses, EMTs molesting patients in the back of an ambulance and firemen committing arson to be a "hero" (it happened here on the island a year or two ago) that you have some serious issues.
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Comparing taking to pictures to carrying a firearm is far-fetched. Pictures don't kill, but I see where you're coming from... but it was too much of a stretch to me.
"Not on cell phones for ones to send out to their buddies or post on facebook. Posting pics or sending them out is not by any means training purposes."
This is an issue I can foresee. I believe someone has done it in a department close to mine (or it probably has even happened in mine). People post anything on Facebook these days. So what is the difference if it is a department member or someone from the outside? If there is work to do and someone is standing there taking a picture instead of grabbing a hoseline or a tool, then that is an issue.
Any media posted on Facebook or shared to friends that is deemed inappropriate should be deemed inappropriate in itself (Example: Pictures of patients, etc).
"The only reasonable use of a personal cell phone on an emergency scene is for one to call family for a brief important message or to call a place of work to let them know whether you will be in to work or will be late due to being dedicated to an emergency."
This is one of the reasons that I stated before for the justified uses of texting on scene, or even at the hospital. From the OP's story it is hard to tell if that's what the member was doing. The member's location for texting was bad, but the timing (patient care being transferred and paperwork was being done by the partner) wasn't terrible; not enough to warrant an outcry from the OP. We truly didn't know the contents of the members texts.
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Andrew...How do I say this any clearer to you without hurting your feelings...
No, you cnat take pictures at emergency scenes regardless if you dont get the victim in the shots without your departments permission. There are laws called "HIPPA" laws that protect the patients privacy of imformation, including the picture of their car you just took. Lots of people know what vehicle you drive, people see these pictures and flip out because they recognize the patients car, and they think the worst. You might also get the license plate. Then there are the other reponders in the pictures, do they want their picture taken? How about any bystanders you may have gotten in the background, do you have their permission? Media will take pictures then ASK you if its alright, and what your name is. If the person doesnt want to be in them they dont run them and they take other shots instead.
YES, they can confiscate your camera, your cell phone anything that can record pictures or voice, and they can use it in court. They can canvas the bystanders as well and take whatever media they have taken as well, its all legal and it has happened before.
What I am trying to do is get you to be more cautious. Dont get in trouble because you feel you have rights over everyone else, play it safe and follow what peopl here are saying, because they are right. As captain of my fire dept I know these things to be true. I was approached at an accident scene by state trooper detectives and asked to see my personal cell phone. When they determined it could not take pictures they handed it back to me and explained what they were doing and I helped them round up my crews and any bystanders as well and they did the same with them. They ended up taking one memory card from a bystander who had a small digital camera in their car and one cell phone from a firefighter in my crew. They copied the pictures they took and deleted them from their device and returned the devices to their owners. It can happen, so be carefull, because they wont allow anyone to start yelling about their rights being violated, they just want to protect the rights of the patients and their sensitive situations.
Be carefull and be safe.
Moose
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Permalink Reply by dale A french on
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No I don't believe that you are stepping out of bounds of your a authority.your personal needs to look the part and look professional keep their eyes and ears open to what is around them for possible hazards. Not to having heads down and eyes glued to their personal devices . No you are on track you and many other depts
and My dept. have the same rule in place on calls weather we are standing by at the scene or any where on the fire ground TEXTING in prohibited . The only time texting is allowed is if an officer needs to send private info to who ever pertaining to the call and using the radio is not an option .
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Andrew,
In the most simplistic way possible, you are wrong. If a dept makes the SOP/G, order, statement, bylaw, or whatever, that is what you abide by. The First Amendment does not protect you from regulations placed upon you while you are acting as an employee of an organization.
This means that irregardless of what you may be able to do from the other side of the fire tape, out of uniform, acting as a civilian, on your own time, is one thing....the minute you are an employee or member of an organization, you follow those rules. If you are booted, fired, etc because of violation of those rules, using the First Amendment as your defense is not going to hold up.
As a career FF and taxpayer, my rights are limited when I'm on the job. While my First Amendment rights guarantee my freedom of speech and so forth, I am limited if on duty. I can NOT campaign while on duty, I can not put a political sign on the station property, I can not speak out for or against city decisions if I'm acting as a FF. I can however, speak up when I'm off duty and another taxpayer.
So if you are going to hold on to the idea that the First Amendment trumps dept policy or rule, then you are wrong. Go ahead and violate dept rules, but don't complain if the consequences don't support your ideals.
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the call is in progress until you get back to station
Going to disagree here Moose. While I can understand where you are coming from, you are stretching things too. Checking the rig over should be the first priority of the day, no reason to check the oil, lights, tires, etc while you are waiting for paperwork.
Secondly, if one person is doing paperwork, there may be nothing you can do. We swap pts every other call, so one report is mine, the next is my partner's. If there is a more involved call and it takes them a bit longer to do at the ER, we'll wait, however, unless I'm specifically asked for help, there really isn't much to do but wait. I agree with getting the rig cleaned and back in service, but that could have already happened.
As for the call, the call is done when you transfer pt care and the rig is back in order. Crews should be monitoring the radio and be ready to take another call, even if paperwork isn't completed. So if they are enroute back to the station, they are available, even if there is reports to complete, if another call comes in, you go.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Veach on
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I agree with all your points. I'm an EMT and a fire fighter. I've texted while sitting in the rig at the hospital waiting for the medic to finish his report and I've also done it in a rig as we sat on the side of the road simply guarding the wreck scene with proper apparatus placement. Our Chief and Assistant Chief do not mind this. On the way to a call, sometimes we do. But, we cover 2000 square miles of County land and often have 30 minute responses to grass fires. The driver doesn't, but passengers do. However, we have had guys talked to for texting while we are still working a scene of a crash. That gets people hot because it means you aren't helping. Lastly, whether or not you are overreacting could be a mute point if there is a policy in place to not text while carrying out any FD duties. If that's the case, he was in the wrong and should be talked to.
PS Our department is all volunteer, but we make no excuses. Bad conduct is bad conduct, and we've kicked people off for simply not being professional. Firefighting isn't something you do, it's something you are. Professionalism is paramount.
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