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Junior Firefighters
What is yalls take on juniors? Should they be able to go on scene? Should they have pagers? Should they ride the trucks or drive POV? thanks
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Funny that all the unsafe things you were allowed to do, and that kids are not allowed to do and you only see it as living in a "litigious environment?" WTF about safety for children?
The only reason your department allowed you to do what you did was because they didn't know any better. Sometimes...regulations, standards and laws (say, Child Labor Laws) as well as lawsuits, all serve to educate those that otherwise would prefer to wallow in ignorance.
Children do not belong on the fireground. If they are being used as manpower for any reason then yes, they are working in a "litigious environment." Not to mention, IDLH.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Jack/dt,
I sense a break through...Have you and I reached common ground on a topic? Because it seems we may actually agree here.
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Don,
It's a christmas miracle!
Search for similar discussions; I have argued against kiddies on the fireground every time this topic comes up (and it has come up surprisingly often).
I'm willing to bet there's a crapload of things we agree on. Not letting children play on the play fire ground is one place to start.
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Permalink Reply by joemac on
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Hey, when I joined, it was early 1968.
It was our becoming a litigious society that brought the shift in attitudes. They both go hand-in-hand.
At sixteen, my friends and I were more like men than typical current teens. We acted like it was serious business, because it is. We were treated accordingly, part of which meant being given responsibilities that were commensurate with our training and abilities.
As I said, it's changed.
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joemac,
Ever stop and think that, at least in part, the reason we've become a "litigious society" is because children were used in place of adults?
The bit about you at 16 being more like men than "current teens" sounds like you may spend a bit of time on your porch, yelling at these current teens to get off your lawn.
"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."
Socrates, 469 BC - 399 BC
As for your "...being given responsibilities that were commensurate with our training and abilities," you wrote that you "Signed the app on Tuesday, rode the backstep on Thursday." Hardly sounds like you had the commensurate training.
My point is this; there are those cadets (and department leaders/officers) that read your comments and agree with you and STILL see nothing wrong in allowing children on the fireground.
And your argument 'seems' to be only that we've become a litigious society, NOT that we've learned that using children on the fireground is wrong.
If I'm wrong and you are right, then why does an applicant to a paid department HAVE to be a minimum of 18 (and not atypically, 21)? Do they just have ridiculously high standards?
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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joemac, I'm truly glad that you didn't kill anyone driving an apparatus for which you didn't have the appropriate license and training.
It's long past the time where we count on "good luck" as an element in firefighter safety - or safety for the public, for that matter.
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"ridicululously high standards"? They hired, you, didn't they? (Sorry dude, I couldn't resist.)
All joking aside, I agree completely. We should not allow minors to operate on the fireground. That's coming from someone who was an interior firefighter at age 17, with a signed parental waiver to allow me to complete the SCBA and interior firefighting portions of my state's Basic Firefighting Course.
(That was prior to the existance of Firefighter I programs.)
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I'm a shining example of 'ridiculously high standards,' thank you very much.
"[I] was an interior firefighter at age 17..." I'm impressed, I would have thought on scene you would have been assigned to taking care of the horses ;-)
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Horses? We dragged the engines by hand and manually operated the piston pumps back then.
Horses and steamers were introduced later.
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Yeah, Ben, me too. I guess it was fortunate that it was a 1937 International with a top speed of fifty, but it was a frightening trip for this boy. I remember thinking it was a shame that I couldn't enjoy it at the time.
Jack, please don't put words in my mouth. I guess I was lamenting the time when young men were just that: young men, rather than larger boys.
The fact that I rode the backstep to my first fire was just how it worked out: it was a grass fire that was handled with two or three Indian tanks and a booster hose. I don't remember there being much training with Indian tanks, other than someone showing me how to change out the tip when it clogged.
I had to have a parent sign the application, which included a release clause of sorts, stating that they understood the risk involved and that by signing the app, they assumed those risks.
I think that is my main lament: that we used to be willing to take on inherent risks and acknowledge danger. There were no lawsuits when someone took on the risks of firefighting and someone was injured. I had a wall partially collapse on me and got the scars to prove it, and I can't imagine my parents ever wanting to sue anyone over it. My mother asked me if it was something I still wanted to do afterwards. My dad's response was something like, "It's something he was born to do."
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joemac,
I was being facetious as far as the 'kids on the lawn' comment, and I understand that things were done differently 40+ years ago. And I understand, not so much that children were more responsible or more mature but, that overall people seemed to pay less attention to the inherent risks of firefighting. Dad does it so he's fine with his 16 year old son doing it.
But does a 16 year old truly understand all of the risks? Do they see themselves as vulnerable? Are they really capable of making the correct decision(s), beginning with going into a burning house? Or were Child Labor Laws passed to allow children to complete their childhood without the added risks that adulthood brings? But most importantly, would you feel comfortable with your 16 year old grandson backing up the nozzleman?
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