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Permalink Reply by steven on February 28, 2011 at 3:53pm

you dont get to the station any faster with lights

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Permalink Reply by Robby Stables on February 28, 2011 at 5:07pm

The risk vs benefit statement is the most important issue in this discussion

A blue (whatever colour) light on the dash or on the roof might be a good warning to other drivers to be on the look out for a Vol FF responding to a scene or to the hall
but to respond with red lights and siren is a DANGEROUS situation in a PV.
Really how much faster do you get there?
If you drive 120 mph on the highway, which will reduce your response by half (IF YOU GET THERE IN ONE PIECE), you would be a huge traffic hazard, otherwise if you repsond even at 80 mph on a 30 mile drive does it save you enough time to make the risk worth while? Granted the person waiting for you will think it took you 2 days but in reality it is better to arrive than to be a second wreck that another crew has to cover.
I am all in favour of a warning light - Blue / Yellow / WigWag Headlamps but after that.....

ARRIVE ALIVE and you are a BIG Help .... Crash and you are just another problem

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on February 28, 2011 at 7:16pm

I am from Wi, and I was told by law enforcement, if you run lights, you must have a siren. You must be seen and heard

Ever care to look at the irony there? The same people telling you this have no qualms about racing through the streets lights only.

As I mentioned above, you can run lights only, you just have to follow all traffic rules if doing so.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on February 28, 2011 at 7:25pm

I agree with your post and the bottom line is to arrive safely, a light and siren on a POV doesn't make it so.


I just wanted to comment further on this aspect.
but to respond with red lights and siren is a DANGEROUS situation in a PV.
Really how much faster do you get there?

While working for a distributor I was in a small city with a volunteer fire dept and they were allowed to use lights and sirens on their POVs. Hearing the siren I waited to see the rig and to farkle, but didn't see it until a pickup drove by going to the station. It was confusing and a regular POV really does not stand out much more with lights and sirens.

Fast forward to when I was a volly, the only one who had lights and sirens was our fire chief. In the county only the chiefs had this ability to have lights and siren on a POV. This was because he could respond directly to the scene or conduct dept business without having to go to the station. He did have years of experience and EVOC certified, but even his POV didn't stand out much.

I'm not a fan of lights and sirens on a POV. When people hear sirens they are typically looking for a BRT, an ambulance or squad car, not POVs.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on February 28, 2011 at 9:30pm

Bull's reply should pretty much answer any and all questions in regard to this subject.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on February 28, 2011 at 10:18pm

Actually not Mike.
You can still respond with lights only in this state, you just have to obey all traffic rules if you do so.

Now as I mentioned before this is better in an apparatus and for us, we do have opticom, so if running lights only the traffic lights change and we can keep going. Also, when we do run lights only, it tends to be at night with little traffic out there.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on February 28, 2011 at 10:18pm

But you do with opticom.

:-)

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Permalink Reply by Russ Marks on February 28, 2011 at 11:42pm

I think it was St Louis that did a study and found Code 3 only made a difference for the first due, so now they have a policy that only the first due responses Code 3, and they have reduced their accident rate with no reduction of response time. Hugh savings to the city, safer for the public. Remember, we did not create the problem, so don't add to it. Of the 100 we lose of our own every year, 30% are going to and from the incident and personally that is unacceptable for something we have control over.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on March 1, 2011 at 12:00am

I think it was St Louis that did a study and found Code 3 only made a difference for the first due, so now they have a policy that only the first due responses Code 3,

There are a few depts out there, mine included, which will send the first due engine or rig priority and the rest non-priority. However, this is for an alarm sounding only (fire calls.....EMS is a different ball game). Any other calls like water flow alarms, or smoke reported, etc will get an emergency response from everyone.

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Permalink Reply by Chad Franks on March 1, 2011 at 7:54am

Wow, this is a ll very good discusion. I like this! Great to hear all of your past experience and input.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on March 1, 2011 at 12:08pm

I stand corrected sir... and responding only using the lights? really? just kidding, who does not shut down the siren when it's not necessary? you make noise to warn people, if no one is on the roadway, or... when you are driving through residential areas, I seriously doubt anyone is going to keep their sirens running. I think most folks more than likely use good judgement when using a siren.

This has been discussed many times here on the FFN, but one key questions needs to be answered before doing the lights and siren thing. Just how much faster will you arrive on scene by using lights and sirens?

Our mantra has always been risk verses benefit, it's how we make decisions on the fireground. Common sense should prevail for most, why? No rescue call is worth getting hurt or killed for. Arrive alive is what we should all focus on, not driving balls to the wall Code 3. Put your egos on check, calm down and remember that often times, the amount of time saved is negligible at best. I question whether it is worth the additional risk and personal liability for those responding to an emergency in a private vehicle, to think that they always have to use lights and sirens.

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Permalink Reply by Bull on March 1, 2011 at 1:25pm

I agree that they are not needed on every call. I live in a very rural area, we dont even have a stop light in our county, stop signs yes...but no stop lights !!! I am FF and a EMR, I have lights and siren on my POV, which I use my POV at every EMS call. 90% of the time, I beat Law Enforcement to car accidents because we have a big county, and few officers. I position my POV in a means of scene protection and as a warning to other drivers of a caution up ahead. I run my lights and siren to most of our EMS calls...depending on nature of call and the time. I have EVOC training, and I drive with due regard !!! We as a F.D. are covered by our town insurance in our POV going to and coming back from a call. I am at this time and have been for about 11 years, the only one that runs lights and siren in his POV, but I am also the only EMS on our Dept. DUE REGARD is the key wording and meaning here...just because the speed limit is 55 mph, doesnt mean you should drive 55 mph when the roads are snow/ice covered !!! My POV gets used alot on scenes for traffic control by myself or others. We are a volunteer sevice, and you never know where you might be when the call comes out. The ambulance service I help out with serves a huge area with several differant townships. I respond alot to other areas with them for assistance. We work and help each other out ALOT !!!! Could not ask for a better relationship between us. Lights and sirens may work out for some people and areas, and not so well for others. I think we need to take that into consideration as well, we all dont live the same lifestyles as everyone. But...thats just my opinion !!!

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