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When Doing the Right Thing Isn't The Right Thing
Has anyone here ever been dissmissed(from volunteer service) for wanting your department to follow NFPA guidelines and regulations or even simply wanting your department to have something as simple as written SOP's for everyone to follow?Have you ever been called a sh!t disturber by any of your officers(including your chief)for the same reasons mentioned above?Are there any other small community volunteer departments that operate in the manner of a "country club" where only the years of service(seniority) dictate who can do what and when?
If you can answer yes to any of these questions,please advise me on how you handeled this situation and the outcome of such,for this is the situation I find myself in at this moment.However, my department has given the "official" reason as being a lack of respect towards officers and conduct unbecomming for the manner in wich I would question certain behaviors and decisions. Any suggestions or comments welcome.
If you can answer yes to any of these questions,please advise me on how you handeled this situation and the outcome of such,for this is the situation I find myself in at this moment.However, my department has given the "official" reason as being a lack of respect towards officers and conduct unbecomming for the manner in wich I would question certain behaviors and decisions. Any suggestions or comments welcome.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Roy Walker on
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While I do support issues of safety I have a hard time understanding how with all there is to learn in this business you have learned enough in a short six months to be able to expect anyone to accept all that you think is pertinent. As many have said you are in most departments still considered probationary and should still be listening not advising. Time takes change and if you are as concerned you need to have waited at least until you have been accepted as a member. Your day job as a truck driver does not leave me to believe that you would have learned a lot that transfers to the fire service. If things are as bad as you thought they were then you're only coarse would be to leave and ask your provincial fire marshal to investigate the department
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Permalink Reply by Ron Arsenault on
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I guess I should have elaborated that I was an EMT also in the past and so yes I do have some experience in the emergency department fields.I state this for the fact that some seem to question my knowledge on this matter due to my time on board with this dept.
I would also like to thank all who responded to my post.I am truely greatful,and pease feel free to continue adding to this discussion.
Ron.
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Permalink Reply by Joseph L. De Laura, jr. on
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Ron, you must show respect before you can receive respect. You might try to get on their good side by asking what they think of this idea or that idea. But, only one idea at a time. Get as much training as you can, prove yourself, and when you ask for their input try to make them think it was all their idea. Research all ideas before bringing the subject up. Like one of the other commentors said, "know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. But, don't quit.
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Permalink Reply by Spartacus on
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I know just how you feel, Pal.
I'm in a dinky fire district in western NY and it's like a private ass-kissers' club.
When I started sounding off about safety and sop's and following by-law's, etc, you'd think I'd raped the Fire Chief's cat.
Wound up with the Fire Chief falsely accusing me of misconduct, and then they threatened to file (false) criminal charges against me if I insisted on the hearing I was entitled to. In NY that's called coercion, a class A misdemeanor.
Under this threat -- and not having thousands of dollars to defend myself from criminal charges -- I resigned.
I'm now asking for a review board to reinstate me since I was forced out in retaliation for my lobbying for safety -- an activity protected by law.
There are more details and I don't know how it's going to turn out.
But don't think you're alone.
I bet this shit happens all the time and we've got to put an end to it RFN.
It's dishonest and inexcusable.
It's also stupid.
And it's completely disrespectful of the people we serve who trust us and regard us as "heros."
Drop me an email if you want to talk more.
sj@spartacusjones.com
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Ron:
First of all, the reason that I brought up your 6 months on was to gain some perspective.
Where it comes to YOUR personal safety, YOU have the highest rank.
That said; did you raise your concerns in a non-threatening manner?
Was the training that you were receiving jeopardizing your personal safety?
Did you follow chain of command when you raised your concerns?
If you weren't satisfied with the response, did you have the right, under your by-laws/SOPs to take it on up the chain?
You weren't real specific in your original post.
But, if I sounded disrespectful, there was none intended.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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As I'm sure many have learned...Sometimes to make a change at some departments the idea has to be the Chief's. You simply have to figure out a way to diplomatically (or subliminally) convince the Chief it's a good idea and sooner or later he'll introduce it to the members. "If it's not HIS idea it's not a good idea."
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Permalink Reply by Chris C. on
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Reg Mathis Please take your own advise and shut up......See i delivered it in the appropriate manner :)
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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I'm surmising that you didn't have much time at your former department and had not learned your place. Two ears and one mouth, with the expectation to keep the latter shut.
If you were to have stayed with said department, there would be eventually a time and place for your concerns.
Eventually? WTF? We're talking about promoting member safety.
I 10000000% totally disagree with this mentality that he has no right cause he's new.
Every member, regardless of how long they've been there have a right to operate safely. They have the right to go home at the end of the job. They have the right to ask questions about safety and offer ideas.
In fact it's more than a right. It's an expectation. Brotherhood is about looking out for each other, regardless of how long he's been a member. I'll go a step further and actually suggets that I'd prefer a member such as Ron looking out for me than many other members who believe he has no right to ask questions.... :-(
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Permalink Reply by Rusty Mancini on
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I don't care if you have one day on the job there. Safety, SOP'S, and what ever else that's missing should be in place! As I read some of the comments it still amazes me to read, you haven't had much time there, you need to know when to speak. etc.. You had every right to speak up period!
Some will only learn the hard way, and--- after all the reviews are done!!
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Permalink Reply by Reg Mathis on
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Actually, it wasn't "advise", it was opinion. Or maybe you'd understand better if I wrote "opinyun"?
But I get what you're saying.
TCStayingSilent
Reg
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Permalink Reply by Larry Murphy on
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Chief Sharp is correct. And I do not know both sides to this iusse. But I would read all your department by laws. And make sure they where all followed to the tee. Also Most Vol Departments here in Illinois have a Fire District set up. They appoint the Chief. And he has saying over the day to day. And you could go to the districts meeting. And voice your complaint to them. It would also help to put it all in writing to them before hand. So they could put you on their agenda for that meeting. Also make sure you being all the documents your would liked looked into. And that departments by laws. You need to back up what you are complainting about. But also a word. And this is just my opinion. Sometimes it is best to just leave and forget about it.
And as for the few that ask and bring up how long you been at your department. That is not the issue at hand. And again I am only repling to one side of the issue. But if you had a safety issue. I myself would have set down with the department safety officer and talked it out. Yes you might be right. Then again if you are new he could at least explain why it is down that way to you. And you both could walk away felling ok about the issue. Every one has the right to bring up safety issue. But it should be done in a respectable manner at all times. So good luck with the issue you are having.
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Permalink Reply by Captain 46 on
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Hmmm after 16 years in the fire service I have to ask a couple of questions. How many of you rookies and senior guys have seen so many new guys come in like gang busters thinking they know it all. I do believe everyone has the right to expect and demand safety, guidelines and leaders worth following. I also believe that way too many new guys are fast to mouth off, not to the officers and the senior guys but to the rest of the sheep that are looking for someone to follow. Standing around in the bay yelling bad leaders, why because they didn't put you on a truck? Because you didn't feel like "one of the guys" when the officers were meeting? Because you want to be the leader of your own club? Which NFPA rules are they not abiding by that upset you? No one here asked the question. Is it some of the new ones like new SCBA standards, fire apparatus standards, how about gear with drag handles in the bunker coat? Anybody have a ton of extra money around to immediately meet these standards? Anybody think officers wouldn't want to meet these standards? Sometimes Fire Officers are bad. Sometimes Volunteer depts don't have enough written standards. Sometimes new guys just like to start trouble and you see it more and more today, there is a serious lack of respect and no concept of brotherhood at all in this new generation.
I have guys from my company who have been afforded every respect and training opportunity. We are a good aggressive, respectful company who are actually very open to new ideas, encourage training and hold an average of 6 training sessions a month, every month. Yet guys leave claiming we were mean to them because we told them they can't be on a fire call and ignore another firefighter because they don't like him. Guys leave whining and crying because they openly disobeyed an order from their Captain to stand ready with the third charged handline and take no action until given an order by an Officer and yet decided to open the line into the structure from the exterior and force the fire onto the crew inside and their Officers called them on this so that it would never happen again. I could go on and on. I would rather newer guys stayed and learned and made a difference. But you can't keep people in a fire dept whose sole purpose is to work against Officers. You can't keep guys who have no respect for Officers and Senior guys who earn it every single day, not in Title, but in actions working their butts off to keep everyone safe and care about their lives.
If it's true that a fire dept ignores safety "because that's the way it's always been done" and I know there's still some out there, stay and learn and care enough to work your way up and make a difference one day at a time. Learn what you can do to help out the Officers and your fellow firefighters. Learn the rules. Respect the rules, they could save your life or someone else's. Know what's safe and practice it. Follow the chain of command. Ask your questions to the right people at the right time.
If it's true that your just a sh!t disturber and there are a hell of alot of you too, then find some other organization of sheep to follow you where lives aren't on the line, brotherhood doesn't mean a damn thing and tell the truth when you tell your story, don't manipulate it so others will feel sorry for you and agree with you.
Sense some frustration? Hell yeah. Been there, done that. Served for Fire Officers that shouldn't have been, made a difference in time, and try to lead as Captain by example, by working harder, training more and learning everyday how to keep those I vowed to protect including our firefighters, safe and then safer. This new generation of too many disrespectful, non-team oriented, freelancing sheep hearders are dangerous to everyone else who really does care. I can't teach loyalty, honor, pride and ethics to people who don't feel it in their soul and don't know what it is. The same people are the same way in all aspects of their life. But I don't believe they get to drag everyone else down because it is them that is lacking.
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