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Freedom Group Protests Cross at Charleston Firehouse
JEFFREY COLLINS
Associated Press Writer
COLUMBIA, S.C. - A group that supports the separation of religion and state wants a cross removed from in front of a Charleston fire station that city officials say honors nine firefighters killed battling a furniture store blaze.
The fight over the cross extends from a battle the Freedom from Religion Foundation had with the city last December when the group complained about a nativity scene in front of the same fire station. Officials added secular decorations, including snowmen, to comply with the law.
Most of the decorations came down by the new year, but the cross stayed up, the city saying it was now a memorial to the firefighters killed in June 2007, said Rebecca Markert, a lawyer for the foundation.
The foundation didn't buy the explanation, sending a letter last week to the city threatening to sue if the cross is not removed because it violates the U.S. Constitution by endorsing a specific religion. The group also said for the past five years the same cross had been removed at the same time as the Christmas items.
"We believe it is a sham to say it is now part of a permanent memorial when before it was being put up and taken down in December as part of Christmas," Markert said Tuesday.
The cross rests near a stone memorial with the names of the nine Charleston firefighters killed as they fought a blaze at the Sofa Super Store.
Lawyers for the city told officials it was a legal display because it is a secular emblem of death.
"The message communicated by the cross is clearly one of honoring fallen firefighters and not of furthering a religious purpose," lawyers for the city said in a news release.
The letter from the foundation gave the city a May 14 deadline to take down the cross.
Related
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Associated Press Writer
COLUMBIA, S.C. - A group that supports the separation of religion and state wants a cross removed from in front of a Charleston fire station that city officials say honors nine firefighters killed battling a furniture store blaze.
The fight over the cross extends from a battle the Freedom from Religion Foundation had with the city last December when the group complained about a nativity scene in front of the same fire station. Officials added secular decorations, including snowmen, to comply with the law.
Most of the decorations came down by the new year, but the cross stayed up, the city saying it was now a memorial to the firefighters killed in June 2007, said Rebecca Markert, a lawyer for the foundation.
The foundation didn't buy the explanation, sending a letter last week to the city threatening to sue if the cross is not removed because it violates the U.S. Constitution by endorsing a specific religion. The group also said for the past five years the same cross had been removed at the same time as the Christmas items.
"We believe it is a sham to say it is now part of a permanent memorial when before it was being put up and taken down in December as part of Christmas," Markert said Tuesday.
The cross rests near a stone memorial with the names of the nine Charleston firefighters killed as they fought a blaze at the Sofa Super Store.
Lawyers for the city told officials it was a legal display because it is a secular emblem of death.
"The message communicated by the cross is clearly one of honoring fallen firefighters and not of furthering a religious purpose," lawyers for the city said in a news release.
The letter from the foundation gave the city a May 14 deadline to take down the cross.
Related
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Refresh my memory Greg... you are argumentative, kind of obnoxious in a nice way, come off as being a tad gruff, you really don't fear anything... literally, you have a family history of serving your communities with the fire service, it's in your blood... you have to be a Truckee?
Regardless of all the "freedom of expression, I want to point out that in a heartbeat, I'd make initial attack on a working structure with you and your crew. Why? Because this is the point of why we are even here on the FFN. Giving another brother shit for whatever reason is just the way it is. Too hot for you? Then get out of the fire. Anyone who's been around for awhile can pretty much figure out whether someone gets it or not.
I have to chuckle knowing exactly what kind of fire company officer you are Greg... "Lead, follow or get out of your way..." Again, you have to be a Truckee... and you get it.
Fraternally,
CBz
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Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
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Thank you very much. You are quite observant. I was on a truck for 12 years. I am a smart ass, and expect my guys to know their jobs. To do their jobs with passion and compassion. I think that putting an idea forward that might be different makes everyone think and rethink their own position and opinion. I like thinkers and people that make changes and improvements instead of complaining. These discussions are what freedom is all about. train hard and be safe.
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Westphilly, You are correct, sometimes things tend to spin out in several directions when there are so many different opinions. Thanks for the comments. Train hard and be safe.
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I for one have thoroughly enjoyed this exchange.
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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Right back at ya, Greg.
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Permalink Reply by Joseph M Denneen Jr. on
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The thing that pains me the most about this is knowing brother fire fighters could be so closed minded and ignorant.
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and many more to come Greg...
it's all about perspectives...
you've either been there which helps you understand or, you are open minded enough to listen, observe and put the pieces of the puzzle together... it's all about choice and personal opinions I suppose, which is what makes a very strategic team. no one likes yes men (or women), what we (the fire service) needs are decisive people who take the time to be thorough which denotes professionalism. and do you know what professionalism is all about, truly? I do and I can prove it... this firefighter made a difference in the eyes of young children who may have to call 9-1-1. being a professional in my minds eye is being so good at your job that people put their life in your hands... without question. this is one hell of a burden to carry, and no one should ever take it lightly. this is such an honorable profession, just look at the kids eyes, they tell it all.
TCSS,
CBz
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Vic, that is not the evidence you think it is. That is simply the firefighter's at that station excercising their freedom of religious expression, guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.
They are not seeking to convert anyone to their religion, they are not confronting anyone who happens to practice another religion, and they are not condemning others who choose to practice another religion or no religion at all.
If any of those things were going on, then you might have a case. "Cramming down the tnroat" requires an activity involving at least two people.
One person displaying a religious symbol isn't an activity - it's passive, and further, it's now being recognized that all those years of "no religious symbols can be displayed on public property" infringes upon the Constitutional rights of those who are guaranteed that government will not "infringe upon the free excercise therof."
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Greg, I call B.S. Jerry Fallwell is dead, and he was never a Charleston firefighter.
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I noticed that you didn't respond to my comment about the nine very similar white crosses that have been displayed at the former Sofa Super Store site on Savannah Highway in Charleston.
How is it that displaying nine at that site is OK, but displaying one at a house that responded to the fire on 6-27-07 supposedly is not?
I didn't say that you aren't entitled to your opinion, but frankly, your opinion, if carried out, infringes on the religious freedoms of others. You don't have the right to do that, and neither does anyone else, regardless of your opinion.
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Vic, actually, it is not evangelising. That requires an active role on the part of the firefighters. The cross is a passive display. The freedom to practice religion can't be infringed, and the Constitution says nothing that prohibits religious symbols in public places. The Constition makes no distinction between public and private places when the freedom to exercise one's religion is involved.
If I'm wrong, please show me where the Consitition says that you can't display religious symbols on public property or anything like it.
Most importantly, no tax dollars are involved in the display, let alone evangelising.
The cross was not funded with public funds and displaying it passively costs nothing.
The ton of precedent is being overturned because the SCOTUS has realized that the previous prohibitions "go too far" in infringing upon the rights of individuals to practice their religion in a public place.
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Jack, sorry brother, but that's BS. I didn't choose to respond to Bryan's comments because I didn't choose to respond to them, period.
In this case, athests (Freedom FROM Religion, remember???) are indeed cramming their beliefs down the throats of the Charleston firefighters and infringing upon their rights to freely practice their religion. When they do it with a passive display that does not involve public funds, it falls under the "free exercise therof".
I realize we've been down this road before, but you seem to think that I have an obligation to back two different sides of this discussion. I have no such obligation.
We simply disagree on this point. I don't condemn you for your personal beliefs nor do I state where you can or can't display evidence of your beliefs. I also recognize that a passive religious display isn't evangelizing, it isn't "cramming down the throat", and no one is harmed by it.
The bottom line here is that it makes no sense for you to ask me to take Bryan to task for his statement when I haven't asked you to defend the Charleston firefighters. Nor...will I.
Please re-read Amendment 1 to the Bill of Rights. "...the free exercise therof shall not be infringed." is the key ingredient here.
As for the narrow viewpoint, thanks for clearing that up, but Bryan has the right to his viewpoint, just as you have the right to yours.
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