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Truck placement on scene.....
This is a big problem at alot of Dept's. Lets hear some stories and idea's way's to solve problems and train to be more prepaired upon arrival.
We got toned to a 2story wood frame multi fam house for fire alarm. This house is on the corner of a main road and a side street with a stone wall lining the lot. the driveway was off the side street. the engine first on scene pulled onto the side street and stopped now blocking all of the side street. the police car had pulled up prior to engine and parked on the street after the driveway. Now here comes the ladder with now no place to park ends up parked on the main road before the side street. Ok i understand the ladder is a 100' stick but that doesn't mean you can park down the street. lucky for the home owner it was a false alarm because when IC who was driving the engine was in the house If there was a true emergancy there is no IC outside doing a 360 plus instead of setting up lines, raising ladders, and starting a search they would have been moving trucks into the right places so they could actually use them. Not only would that cause a huge cluster but look like a bunch of civilians just trying to be heros. Or is that all they are when they don't show up to any of the training because the Chief say's they don't have to because they're his kids. But that's a whole other topic in it self haha.
Lets hear some stories, ideas, and resolutions.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Michael,
Well I don't totally agree with a few replies on this thread.
Many times I will reposition apparatus once we identify the location of the true incident. I can think of many remote fire alarm announciators I have read while my crew (FIRST DUE) awaited orders or even verbal reports from a civilian who said best access is through this or that way.
Resolutions: Well first off, your nothing showing example is not deemed a true command mode operation, it is an "investigation mode" per NFA. Therefore the first due officer is most likely going to investigate with his or her crew. He may or may not be in full command at that point (but definately in command of his or her crew's actions) but an AFA -Nothing Showing, doesn't warrant having a full command mode operation (with an IC standing in the street, or doing a 360 with a command vest on). I have never done that on a fire alarm.
Therefore just like my last alarm, (10 minutes ago) I signed off with 2.5 story wood frame, lightweight truss, multi-family dwelling with nothing showing three sides, E-111 is investigating, all other companies to level one staging. Companies staged in Level 1 are not brought to the scene until deemed necessary.
Now if we open the door and find a smoke condition, or fire, then it gets bumped to a full command mode operation with commander in the street, and multiple companies going to work. But until then, it remains an investigation mode.
Secondly, IF YOU ARE GOING TO WORK ON ARRIVAL - the first due sets the tone for apparatus placement, if you screw it up, then the rest will surely suffer. The first due engine officer needs to spot the truck and keep in mind the "trucks" needs.
The PD well that is a whole other topic and not something easily fixed by the FD.
TCSS
FETC
www.fetcservices.com
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Sounds like someone needs to take Intro to Fire Officer, and Fire Officer I.....
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Permalink Reply by Michael A. Pimental on
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may be a stupid question but what do you mean Paul? sorry for my ignorance haha
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Not at all....to me to be blunt it sounds like the IC had his head up his ass....You cannot "command" from inside a structure....look at the mess outside...resources don't do a bit of good if you can't get to them. We were taught that 1st arriving actually drives by the structure part way so that the IC can visualize three side of the structure...A, B,D...and also if you have an aerial rsponding it would be nice to keep the area of access clear...also don't park so close that the apparatus becomes an expensive exposure....If there is one apparatus on scene give it some room...many rigs store their ground ladders in compartments accessable from the rear...park too close....you can't get them off the rig...Use your head for more that something to fill your helmet.....LOL Paul
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This may be my lack of exparience on my part, but I would think always park trucks in a manner to operate the ladder from the position parked and also the engine. It's just one less thing to worry about if your investigation turns up smoke of fire. Also if everyone is in the building investigating (the IC) then who will see the smoke now showing through the roof? I am not an officer have not had the chance to take IC so I am just going on theory. I was under the impression as long as you have the men to do so, IC stayed out and sent in the team to investigate. So please explain the pros and cons of each.
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That's a good question that's why at some mci's the IC staff may be at a remote location. but I do understand that's rear occassions.
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Permalink Reply by Rob on
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The distinction between investigation mode and full command mode is an interesting addition to this thread. It's impact on apparatus placement can be very relevant. But yet another factor to consider would be exactly what companies you have on the call. For a residential fire alarm only call, my dept has one engine and one truck on the card, so there is no such thing as level 1 staging for us. Those two pieces will always position themselves as if the call could escalate to a full structure assignment at any minute, just in case. There's simply no advantage to 'casual' parking, if you might need to be somewhere else very soon. However, if your cards call for a full structure assignment on an alarm call, then yes I can see the reasons for a staging setup initially.
Also, even for an investigation, our engine officer will generally remain outside while a team goes interior. We find that keeping to one rule for IC type roles avoids mistakes and keeps things simple. No need for him/her to rapidly change their mode or tasks.
I think the complete lack of standardization and sop's across the fire service in the US will mean that this discussion will never come to a 'perfect solution'. Everyone will always have their way of doing it. But it is interesting to get other points of views.
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Thank you! My dept on residential calls is one engine and one truck. You pretty much summed up my thoughts. I would love to hear everyones thoughts on these two topics My lack of exparience has me searching for as many ideas as I can get.
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Ok so my thoughts not to far off. If I was to be IC on that call that is just what i would do. Drive the engine beyond the Delta side reporting " engine xxx on arrival nothing showing from three sides of a 2 story wood frame multi family. Investigating further Ladder xxx take the driveway on arrival. xxx will be taking comand. then send in a team to investigate the interior with therm imager. Call would go from findings If something is to turn up ladder is able to access Alpha and delta sides and all of the front of the roof. engine is positioned to drag hose and start pumping the wet stuff on the red stuff. If nothing is found we simply pack up and go home.
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Due to the economy, my department runs one engine and one truck on straight still alarms, which for us is a residential fire alarm. The ladder truck per policy will stage in level one staging, (at least one block away) they are also not committed, they do so without a formal staging officer and await further orders from the first due officer.
The size or layout of the building in a 1 and 1 response is even more important to use the level one staging option "just in case it escalates into a real incident". The first due officer reports to the unit in staging, that they need to report to the... rear, the roof or where ever. If you use "The casual placement of apparatus as you call it" the ladder will often position themselves with the engine, and it could be in the wrong place. When using the level one staging, it is not for just big box alarms, it is for 1-1 or 3-2-1 responses, (designed for any multi-unit responses)
This is designed to allow the placement of the second due apparatus in the right place on the first attempt. Not pull up, get out with the engine guys, stand around or enter to assist, then realize, you are needed in a different location.
For us, it affords me the capability to have two units on scene, but not committing the second unit unless the investigating mode crew decides to assign a task to the ladder. If not assigned a task from staging, they are free to respond to the next alarm without any delay. (as stated before with the crew out of the truck, walking around or inside the first building, not to mention being boxed in as in your case here)
I find the way we run thin with a 1 and 1, it affords me a better understanding of where ALL my personnel are, and when I need them, assigning a task in which I know will be expedited without delay.
Not saying our way is right or wrong, but it is also taught at the NFA and we have adopted the NFA ICS system.
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I can see how that works and may be good for a dept like mine. we only have 2 full time guys and the rest are on call so sometimes we may not have much of a team. In the case where only the two full timers respond for a res. fire alarm they role out the engine on scene they both work together and obviously IC would have to enter building in that case so depending on what we have for man power they sometimes stage the ladder at the station until further notice. Like i said though it all depends on man power. Most of the time both trucks role when able.
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FETC, it actually seems that both our systems are quite similar, but with our own 'personal' touches that cater for our individual needs/preferences.
Our typical call volume can allow us to comfortably utilize the truck company in assisting with an investigation, and since our greater area is saturated with volunteer companies, the truck is easily replaced with the next due if a second call comes through. Also, our engine is first on scene 99% of the time and will always have a planned placement for the truck ready when they arrive.
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