Differences in Civilian and RIT Rescue

So I was reading a FF magazine, and in it was an article about different sets of tactics for civillian and FF rescue. And in this article it mentioned that there are some dept's that train the same way either for rescuing a civillian or rescuing a firefighter. It then goes on to give some differences between each type of rescue and why they should not be treated the same as far as tactics go. Different things to keep in mind while performing a search for a homeowner or a firefighter.
I have 2 questions/polls or whatever you wanna call it regarding this topic:
#1- Be honest, are there any dept's out there that DO train the same way for rescuing a civillian or rescuing a firefighter? Personally, I know of none around here.
#2- What would be some differing tactics between the two? For example: searching for a civilian usually is focused in the most common areas (near windows,doors or in the actual fire location). Searching for a firefighter is different as he/she could be anywhere within the structure. Another example would be dragging a civilian out who is wearing likely minimal clothing as opposed to a firefighter who is fully dressed in PPE and other tools. A little more difficult.
I hope this generates many comments, not only for myself, but for others who might be curious.
Thanks. stay safe and have fun.

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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on December 16, 2009 at 10:21pm

Ok.so just to clarify ( i have no experience with MSA or anything other than scott, and it's the "old" scott to boot), you can, with the MSA, hook up to the pack and equalize both bottles, That, I'm ok with. Now after you've done that, can you separate from the "donor" and be independant again, or would you lose air when disconnecting?

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on December 16, 2009 at 10:52pm

You can seperate, but if you leave the two packs connected, the downed firefighter has twice as much air. If you disconnect, a very small puff of air is all you lose.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on December 16, 2009 at 11:01pm

The Scott buddy breather system was designed to get air to a firefighter who was unable to breathe from his cylinder due to a 1st-stage regulator failure. When you disconnect a Scott buddy breather from one SCBA and connect it to the other, the air in the disconnected SCBA is unusable. Both firefighters are now breathing from the same cylinder, ergo, they'll breathe the air from that cylinder twice as fast. They will also be tethered together while using the cylinders.

The buddy breather system I've used on Scotts (Airpak 50 series) didn't connect two SCBAs together, it connected two masks with a quick-connect pigtail to a single SCBA. There was no breathing from one cylinder, then the other, as one cylinder was out of service.

What you're describing is something entirely different that what I'm familiar with on Scotts.

As for the MSA/URC issue, the URCs are all male and the only way to connect to them is with a high-pressure hose with female URC connectors, regardless of donor SCBA model.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on December 16, 2009 at 11:04pm

I didn't say that it couldn't be done, but the MSA user guide clearly recommends against transfilling a 2216 SCBA from a 4,500. The heating issue can lead to a possible cylinder failure. If the 2216 SCBA relief valve doesn't work as designed, you can overpressure the cylinder and rupture it.

Of course, no relief valve would ever be too dirty, damaged, or corroded to be jammed shut, right?

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on December 17, 2009 at 12:19am

I know you didn't say that it couldn't be done outright but this quote sticks out and can be misleading:
4,500 PSI SCBA can only transfill another 4,500 PSI SCBA, because a flul 4,500 can pressurize a 2216 past its design limits even at half full.

and that is the reason I responded to this, because it can and does work to use a 4500 to pressurize a 2216. Yes, it is not recommended and this is not an everyday type of operation either, especially in a RIT situation and that is the point.

Point is that using a higher pressure scba to refill a lower will work and is something that other members should be aware of, especially if there are different style and different pressures amongst scbas of differing depts. While this should no be a standard practice of refilling bottles, this is something that should be known and even practiced on if there are differences between depts and SCBAs and how to address a FF down situation. Refilling like this maintains mask integrity of a FF down and frees up time to remove a FF vs trying to interchange SCBAs in such a critical moment.

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Permalink Reply by CAPNCRNCH on December 17, 2009 at 10:20am

Derek, look into the duel EBSS from SCOTT when you guys upgrade. The duel EBSS is a hose with a male and female connection that is mounted on the left hip near the URC, this allows the user to connect with another scott user in several different ways.

Check out the info at the scott health website.

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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on December 17, 2009 at 10:27am

I will, capncrnch, and thanks. We have recently purchased 2 new scotts with the new feature. I have not yet checked them out, but most certainly will. It's unfortunate that we can only replace 2 at a time, but, hey, a budget's a budget.
I will go to the website now, and again, thanks to all, and I hope others have learned, and will learn, something from this discussion. I certainly have.