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Debate 2: Figure 8 Descenders Have No Place in Rescue
After misreading the original debate on these forums about the use of the Figure 8 KNOT, I wanted to really get a controversial debate and discussion going about the use of the Figure 8 DESCENDER in rescue.
I for one, will never advocate or promte the use of the Figure 8 for any part of a rope rescue, wheter it be as a descender, belay device, etc.
Here's my reasons, not in any order-
1) No safety mechanism- The Figure 8 has no single or double stop mechanism
2) Human Factor 1- The Figure 8 relies on the rescue having at least one hand on the rope at all times. In a a "lost footing" situation or similar, the rescue can let go of the rope to catch themselves, resulting in a fall
3) Human Factor 2- Two different ways to reeve it. Depending on what way you're taught, you can come up from the bottom or from on top of the device (Does that makes sense?) THis can result in larks heading the device if the unit/rope gets caught on an edge. This in turn can lock up the descender leaving the rescuer stranded.
4) Multiple lock offs- The device can be locked off multiple ways- again they all have different pro's and con's. THis can create confusion to members that may be used to one way, and then having to be taught another way, etc.
5) Load ratings- Again, depending on the type and brand used, there's a load of different load ratings. Again, adds to the confusion.
6) Hands off test- One of the tests we do here when training is to blow the whistle. Every member of the team should be able to take their hands off everything and no one should be able to move or be in danger. With a figure 8, you let you, you fall.
7) Casualty/Rescue safety- If the casualty is combattant (spelling?) or panics, they can put both them and the rescuer in danger by knocking them, etc.
8) Friction- The unit heats up very quickly and is really only best suited to short rappels.
9) Human Factor 3- The unit reuqires the operator to control the speed/friction by hand. This can be too hard to control in a rescue situation.
10) Human Factor 4- Load it up with a rescue and a casulty and you've just increased the isuses around controlling the device and the friction.
For me, I'll take a double stop descender any day over an 8. Recreationally I use the 8 for quick small jumps, but that's it.
Now I know this is going to be controversial, so let's hear your thoughts, but be nice about it!!!!!
I for one, will never advocate or promte the use of the Figure 8 for any part of a rope rescue, wheter it be as a descender, belay device, etc.
Here's my reasons, not in any order-
1) No safety mechanism- The Figure 8 has no single or double stop mechanism
2) Human Factor 1- The Figure 8 relies on the rescue having at least one hand on the rope at all times. In a a "lost footing" situation or similar, the rescue can let go of the rope to catch themselves, resulting in a fall
3) Human Factor 2- Two different ways to reeve it. Depending on what way you're taught, you can come up from the bottom or from on top of the device (Does that makes sense?) THis can result in larks heading the device if the unit/rope gets caught on an edge. This in turn can lock up the descender leaving the rescuer stranded.
4) Multiple lock offs- The device can be locked off multiple ways- again they all have different pro's and con's. THis can create confusion to members that may be used to one way, and then having to be taught another way, etc.
5) Load ratings- Again, depending on the type and brand used, there's a load of different load ratings. Again, adds to the confusion.
6) Hands off test- One of the tests we do here when training is to blow the whistle. Every member of the team should be able to take their hands off everything and no one should be able to move or be in danger. With a figure 8, you let you, you fall.
7) Casualty/Rescue safety- If the casualty is combattant (spelling?) or panics, they can put both them and the rescuer in danger by knocking them, etc.
8) Friction- The unit heats up very quickly and is really only best suited to short rappels.
9) Human Factor 3- The unit reuqires the operator to control the speed/friction by hand. This can be too hard to control in a rescue situation.
10) Human Factor 4- Load it up with a rescue and a casulty and you've just increased the isuses around controlling the device and the friction.
For me, I'll take a double stop descender any day over an 8. Recreationally I use the 8 for quick small jumps, but that's it.
Now I know this is going to be controversial, so let's hear your thoughts, but be nice about it!!!!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Luke, for U.S. use, no figure 8 plate is rated for a rescue (G) load, which includes the multi-directional loading you get when you use it as a rigging plate. If you don't want to buy a bear claw or similar rigging plate, just get a steel rigging ring. They come in NFPA G ratings, they are simple and easy to use, and they cost around $10 US if you lose one.
I use rigging rings as the core of my movable control point (trolley) systems for English reeves, boat Telfer systems, etc. -
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Permalink Reply by Dave Andrews on
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"and you never know when you will have to dig deep into the tool box."
That's so real.....a great tool box and a good jugment!!!! -
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Permalink Reply by Doesn't play well with others. on
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Whistle stop is a great "exercise" tool. The thing that bothers me with it is that you are assuming that everyone involved has lost control of the system at the same time.
Even if a catastrophic event would occur that renders everyone incapacitated, your system should be built to withstand this.
Main line can be free traveling (munter, rack, 8, whatever), your safety line should have a break in it (prussic ks, Gibbs, 540). Whistle stop would load the break device on the safety line. Problem solved. Keep it simple. -
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An eight has a place in Rescue. Might not be the idea use for lowering a load. It is only rated for light duty, or one person. Where it is effective is quick access to a patient. When you need to send a pair of rescuers down to the bottom of a cliff to stabilize a patient, there is no quicker method.
Would I use an 8 to lower a person? Low angle rescue, yes. High angle? It would not be my first choice, but it is a safe practice.
I guess I am from the keep it simple school of thought when it comes to technical rescue. I looked at the lowering systems you posted earlier. They are neat, but I like to keep the system free of devices. The more complex things you add to a system, the more there is that can fail. -
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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No quicker method? I could use a Fallright Auto-Stop descender which is a double stop descender and be down there just as quick and in compelte safety, especially points 1, 2, 6, 9 and 10 that I raised in my original argument/question.
There is simply put, ZERO safety with an 8.
I'm stunned that in Vertical Rescue, we promote redundancies on redundancies on redundancies (to the point where I think we've over complicated so many systems!) and yet we still want to use an 8 that has no safety....
Happy to listen to logical debate on the issue, but speed is not one of them. -
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Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on
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If I had my way they wouldn't be used; although they do make good anchor plates! While a rack has no fail stop either, at least the friction can be adjucted through out the descent.
Drew they do make stainless steel 8's that are G rated. -
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Jeff, I'd have to go searching again, but I'm sure I read a report a while ago that said there was no way an 8 should be used as a rigging plate due to the stresses.
Not sure... -
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Many agencies use an 8 as a gathering device. They have to calculate its MBS somehow which is most often done from an end-to-end pull.
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Permalink Reply by Lance Piatt on
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I agree. Many many other options available. A total lack of "multiplicity".
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Permalink Reply by Jeff on
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in are department we use the figure eight in tactical repealing or assisting the basket and rescuer also we use the figure eight as an type of anchor system hard to explain but I have pics if u want to msg me. in January of this year I was in Las Vegas at the North Las Vegas police helo base and red rock canyon training with CMC school and we used the rescue figure eights several times I can see how they work with other things but not so good when they are by there self’s.
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If you need a rigging plate, use a rigging plate that is designed for the forces involved, not an 8 plate that is not. Even a simple steel rigging ring is safer than the 8 plate when used to collect the different parts of a vertical rescue system.
Even a NFPA G-rated 8 plate is rated for linear forces in a single-dimension - it probably isn't tested or rated as a rigging plate.
We need to use our system components for things for which they are designed and rated, not for things that "many agencies use", which means "we've gotten lucky so far". -
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