The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
First thing that should be done at a structure fire.
This is something that the guys and I debate from time to time. Here is the scnerio, your company is dispactched to a working structure fire, there is no entrapment. You and your company arrive on scene, complete a 360 of the structure, hook into a water supply and the decision is made to do an interior attack of the fire. What is the next step that should be taken? I am a firm believer in venting the roof (if possible) and breaking windows and laddering so that there are avenues of egress. If this can be done concurrently as a crew makes an interior attack then so be it, if it has to be done prior to making the interior attack due to a lack of manpower, then thats an option to. What do you all think?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
Why vent the roof? it's not needed at least half the time on single-family dwellings. Traditional horizontal ventilation by just breaking a window at the seat of the fire will take care of a lot of initial vent needs. Horizontal vent takes one firefighter less than a minute and doesn't put that firefighter at risk above the fire.
Vertical vent takes two to three firefighters, and it takes longer to deploy and raise an extension ladder than it takes one firefighter to complete the OV.
Ventilation shouldn't be done automatically if you don't have a line ready to go. Intentionally changing a ventilation-controlled fire to a fuel-controlled fire is a big mistake if you don't have the water to immediately overpower the fire once you vent.
Ventilation - like any other fireground activity - should be done in a controlled manner, situationally, and for an incident-specific purpose. If you miss any of those three things, ventilation can cause more problems than it solves.
Lightweight truss roofs or non-dimensional engineered roofs aren't the best places to put firefighters, especially over well-involved fires. More horizontal vent and PPV and less vertical vent is the trend for single-family fires in lightweight construction, and for good reason.
-
-
Can you clarify the "leave the fan on the truck" statement? I understand not using PPV when the fire hasn't been located, but PPV on wood-frame structures is the norm in many places, and it has had some dramatic successes.
-
-
Chris,
That technique works great...if the occupants are standing in the front yard when you arrive.
If there are viable victims near the fire, venting to get the heat and gases away from them and cool, fresh air to their respiratory systems is essential.
Obviously, if it's flashed over, no one inside is alive.
As for minimizing water damage, Chief Alan Brunacini (ret.) of the Phoenix Fire Department said it best..."You can dry out water damage tomorrow, but you can't unburn the building."
-
Permalink Reply by Chris on
-
But NOT venting just shows a complete lack of understanding fire behavior and firefighting in general.
I beg to differ. Our fire brigade does not ventilate on attack, and we are Highly Trained, well drilled and do have an extremely good understanding of Compartment Fire Behaviour. You also say ventilation is the best way to prevent unburned gasses from igniting, we don't subscribe to this and use "gas cooling" (a rapid pulse from a 38mm acron, set to about a 30 degree fan that releases approx. 1 cub of water to the hot gases) to keep everything below the flash temp. This method works extremley well, and does allow for a fast progression of the attack line.
When the line is opened up on the fire before ventilation, where does the expanded and expended steam, and gases go?
If you are producing this ammount of steam, It is too much water. We are taught to "pencil" then paint the fire. You should be able to put out a fire using these methods with an absolute minimal ammount of water, produce an un-noticable ammount of steam and leave zero water damage.
Hesitating to take out windows becouse of some property conservation attitudes shows a lack of basic firefighting understanding
If you do not believe in "property conservation" why even make entry??? Might as well let it flash, self ventilate and watch it burn to the ground, then wet down the ashes. We are there trying to save the house, and don't want to cause more damage than the fire and smoke already have (Ie. Water damage to walls, flooring etc.) And as for the "theory", Alot of European nations have used these techniques for a very long time. The Germans make it look like childs play, I have seen a video of a crew making entry to a 4 bed house, 2 rooms involved. They were in and out in about 6 minutes, fire out and zero damge caused by them.
"Emergency Egress" If it is that close to flashing, that you will need to run through a hole in the wall, should you really be inside?? And why have you not seen the signs before that point? Lack of training perhaps?
As for opening windows rather then breaking them, we only do this once the fire is blacked out, to ventilate a cold building in conjunction with a PPV.
You're comments sir are both derogitory and mis-informed. There are alot of european countries that use these techniques, and they work extremely well, But they obviously have "no clue" and are under trained dip shits with no experience. Our Fire Brigade is a world class organisation, It is heavily funded, and the training involved is second to none. Our last firefighter to die on the fireground was over 50 years ago, not bad considering we operate around 500 stations statewide. And adding to that, in the last 6 months I personaly have attended 3 house fires that were actually heavily involved, and not one of those houses was lost, and all 3 suffered minimal water damage with next to no damage inflicted by us, bar the front door being kicked in. Your way is not the only way to do things, and I worry about anyone that would make theses claims
-
Permalink Reply by FETC on
-
Chris I am with Ben on this one.
Venting is critical if you are to afford the trapped occupant any possible chance of survival. Especially with the chemicals that are in modern day smoke. Exposure to dangerous toxins are what is killing civilians... the quicker we ventilate the greater the chances of survival.
Another thing to ponder, at least in my area of the world... The windows and the wiring are ruined when you have any decent fire inside a dwelling. By not breaking the windows, you will appear to be a nicer / cleaner and friendlier fire department but the interior usually gets gutted to assure you have no melted wires and the window/sashes are stained/warped, so what are you really saving? except adding to the thermal insult your firefighters are exposed to.
If we make entry into a home, even if the home is known to be unoccupied, (residents are on the lawn upon my arrival) the minute I have one of my firefighters enter the structure to perform interior fire attack, it now has a life safety issue and the structure needs to be "properly" ventilated to protect my men.
It is that simple.
-
-
I understand that with persons involved it gets fuzzy, but our priority before Primary SAR is to knock the fire down, much the same as you would not start an MVA rescue without ensuring the power lines hanging on the vehicle are dead. We remove the danger, then concentrate on victims. The reason for this is that we are more important than them. On our way into the fire we will scan with the TIC, a PSAR usally can be done within 30sec to a minute using it as you really only need to look in each room quickly, there is effectivley no "searching" with us anymore. Our big search is the secondary SAR, performed when the fire is out and we are looking for bodies and evidence. Even with persons involve, we do not ventilate, thats the way we operate, much like the germans and other european countries.
-
-
I agree that the services are different, but just thought the way the comments were directed was in a close minded derogitory way to any fire service that does things differently. Our fire service used to do things in the same manner as the US, but over the last 20 years it has evolved and expanded to what we do today. I am in no way saying the way you guys do it is wrong, just pointing out that not everyone does it the same way, and that does not make us poorly trained or inexperienced, just different to you. I also am not trying to start a fight, so please don't take it as such.
Thankyou, Stay safe
Cheers
-
-
Chris,
It's not fuzzy for us at all. U.S. firefighters search ahead of the line and over the fire every day, especially in multi-occupancy fires. We occasionally lose a firefighter doing it, and I certainly don't advocate always doing it, but I don't advocate never doing it, either. The other factor is that ventilation get the heat outside the structure, and quickly. I don't care how fast you prevent ignition with how little water - it may stop ignition, but that doesn't reduce heat where the victims are.
With U.S. construction, if the fire has done any real interior damage, then water isn't going to hurt the property - it's already roasted.
I'm one of the biggest advocates you'll ever see for staying out of Born Loser fire buildings, period. However, if you're going inside, getting good ventilation immediately ahead of the attack lines and pushing the fire out of the building works for us.
To do otherwise is a guarantee that savable victims will die unnecessarily, at least in the type of multi-occupancy fires we have so many of in the U.S.
-
Permalink Reply by Chad Furr on
-
I guess what I was told once is correct then. "you can put out any fire in the world with just 5 gallons of water............................if you wait long enough" WE do not have the luxxury of a good budget, tons of manpower, and paid FF's. 90% of the time when we get the call it is too late. That is if the house is next door to the firehouse. WE cover such a large area of RURAL countryside with most of the time dirt roads leading to them a 5 mile trip takes 10 mins. As we all know what a fully involved fire will do unattended in 10 mins. I would really love to take a trip and see you in action and maybe bring home some ideas to our dept. I am all for the smallest amount of "us" damage as possible when feasable. TCSS And Buckle Up
-
-
I would have to say PUT THE DAMN FIRE OUT! That would be our first job. JK guys. WE would go defensive cause we never get to em in time. PPL around here like to wait til it is way too late to dial 911.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
