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Drinking in the Fire House
Last week I went to lunch with some co-workers (non-FFs) and the discussion rolled around to my involvement with the FD. One of the guys said "well, you must have guys that just join the department for the drinking". This recalled to mind another comment by someone, some years back, who swore that ALL volunteer FFs drank at the station and "those who say they don't are lying".
In my department you might find a 6-pack or two if you look in every nook and cranny, but we really don't touch the stuff on drill night or after calls, or meetings. There just isn't stuff to touch. In the late 80s we had the converted soda machine that dispensed several brands of beer but we got rid of it because the Jr. FFs were becoming interested in the stuff.
So - what is your department policy or practice regarding alcohol in the firehouse?
NOTE: 10/16/09: I started this thread over two years ago to gather input from other volunteer firefighters on FFN as it was then. The new theme is, what steps can we take to make America's fire houses 100% dry?
In my department you might find a 6-pack or two if you look in every nook and cranny, but we really don't touch the stuff on drill night or after calls, or meetings. There just isn't stuff to touch. In the late 80s we had the converted soda machine that dispensed several brands of beer but we got rid of it because the Jr. FFs were becoming interested in the stuff.
So - what is your department policy or practice regarding alcohol in the firehouse?
NOTE: 10/16/09: I started this thread over two years ago to gather input from other volunteer firefighters on FFN as it was then. The new theme is, what steps can we take to make America's fire houses 100% dry?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Firefighter Nation WebChief on
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The issue with the user posting inappropriately has been dealt with.
This thread is closed since its a little odd now with all the references to a post no longer there, please feel free to reopen discussion.
Thanks for those that reported it. As xchief says, please use the report functions. We can't possibly read every thread.
Thanks
Dave
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Permalink Reply by FF Schoen on
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Thank you Web Chief for handling this
God Bless and Go Home Safe
" Never Forget "
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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Thank you Web Chief for dealing with this. I have re-opened it (I think you gave your blessing) and newcomers will have to literally read between the lines to figure out what is missing.
Joe
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Permalink Reply by Tiger Schmittendorf on
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I'm with the Chief on this one Scarecrow -
"Many who drink do not know the difference between a couple, more than a couple, being impaired or being drunk. This is something that cannot be left to the individuals to decide."
As I've emphasized previously, the first thing to go is our ability to make sound judgements. That's why self-policing doesn't work.
The other thing we all have to realize in determining the difference between a couple and too many is that it's not our decision to make.
The customer has already made that decision for us by paying our way for what we do. And the last I checked, they're not too excited about having anyone respond to their emergency who might be, or might be perceived to be - under the influence of alcohol or other drugs.
Just the perception of having consumed alcohol can be cause for your career-dissipation light to not just flicker, but kick into over-drive.
Secondly, it's not our decision to make because the people who rely on us to come home after the call have determined that they're not interested in any undue risks that could prevent us from completing our return journey.
I'm talking about the people who love us, the people who we leave behind when the siren goes off. The people making the real sacrifices.
Society has determined that drinking and driving is irresponsible and unacceptable. How can drinking and responding be anything less. Why can't we get our society to understand that?
As my good friend Billy Goldfeder says, when considering a potentially dumb-ass move, ask yourself: "Who's in your wallet?"
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I really don't mean to be beating you up on this, but I've seen just the opposite.
Many people today are clamoring to be part of a well oiled, well disciplined firefighting machine. There's plenty of opportunities for them to join a social club where drinking is acceptable, instead they choose to join us. We offer them so much more that we're discounting and disrespecting ourselves if we focus on the free adult beverages as a benefit of belonging.
As for your comment that "dry" fire departments don't run as well, I'm not sure what you mean by that but my experience has been that alcohol in the firehouse has caused far more problems than an FD taking a dry approach to the matter. In fact, I've seen booze be the root of all evil in destroying some departments.
I take issue with others' comments that if we remove the beer and turn the firehouse into a professional place of work and take the social aspects out of it, people will have bad attitudes and not show up.
I constantly struggle with balancing a professional environment with a family atmosphere in our fire department, but if it's the beer that makes you show up - you're showing up for the wrong reasons. And, for the record, don't bother showing up at my firehouse or on my fire scene.
My FD has been dry for more than 15 years and guess what? It hasn't affected our membership one bit, other than the fact that candidates coming to our door are coming for all the right reasons. It's something we're tremendously proud of and some of our younger members actually avoid drinking out of their own "fear" that they may miss a call - and they don't want to do that.
Frankly, it's the best thing we ever did. We did it largely out of respect for our Fire Explorer and Junior Firefighter programs we were ramping up at the time. We never wanted one of our kids to walk into the firehouse and see us sitting around drinking.
It hasn't seemed to hurt our membership, we took in almost 20 new members last year. And, all three of our immediate past chiefs started as Explorers and Junior Firefighters, including myself. I think that says a lot about our attitude towards being positive role models for our youth.
We need to stop making excuses, stop making Manhattans, and start making our customers and our families nothing but proud of who we are and what we have to offer our communities.
Scarecrow - I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, because there's nothing I can think of that could change my outlook on the matter.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Thanks for listening.
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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"some of our younger members actually avoid drinking out of their own "fear" that they may miss a call - and they don't want to do that."
Right on the money (yet again lol) Tiger. This is the one leading reason that I rarely drink. I think it is sad to go bowling and look inside the sports bar (part of the bowling alley) and I see the people I grew up with that had "such potential" belly up to the bar in their normal seat. It is sad to see some people throw their lives and potential down the drain for lack of ability to keep the bottle out of their hands.
I don't drink for the simple reason I don't like to lose control for 1 moment, and I would hate the loss of control where I couldn't respond to a call because my dumb ass got drunk. I get wierd looks when I say that, but I know that any time of day or night, I am not under the infleunce and available to respond.
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Permalink Reply by Ray W on
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Why should 100% dry be the goal?
Not all Volunteers are drunks & the vast majority knows right from wrong.
I don’t have the ability to get on the truck anymore, but when I did I knew when I shouldn’t respond to a call. I liked to enjoy an occasional beer after a drill or a meeting to unwind & shoot the s**t with the guys about your day or the drill, the problem is going overboard with the drinking. We are {were} all adults and should be smart enough not to get on the rig when drinking.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with sitting at the hall with your friends enjoying a beer {or two} playing a game of euchre, as long as when the horn blows you don’t throw down your cards.
Maybe we should think about that,
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Permalink Reply by Scarecrow on
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Except the person is part of our lives. He may not be in the firehouse, but he is in the public. That would be the same public we serve and in some cases the same public that pays the salaries. I think it is important to listen to everyone, no matter how off the wall they seem. It is a good way to gauge what is really going on in the department and the community. Realize, that ignore is the first part of ignorance.
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Permalink Reply by Mike 63 DC on
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Here is a copy of an Alcohol & Substance Abuse Policy. It is a very good policy to adobt with the legality today. Volunteer or Career there is no room for alcohol & illegal substances on the fire ground or in the station.
SECTION 1 - OBJECTIVE:
It is the goal of this policy that no member of Fire Company is ever under the influence of either alcohol or an illegal controlled substance while responding to alarms, working on the fire ground, attending training, at fire department meetings or attending fire department events so as to prevent harm to self or others and to prevent damages to the reputation and professional image of the Fire Company.
SECTION 2 - POLICY
1) No member of Fire Company shall respond to an alarm, drive any fire department owned vehicle, attend training drills, attend fire department meetings, be on Fire Company grounds or attend any fire department event while under the influence of either alcohol and/or an illegal controlled substance.
2) Members shall be considered to be under the influence of alcohol when they appear visibly intoxicated, visibly under the influence of an illegally controlled substance or a controlled substance not used as prescribed or when their blood alcohol concentration is 0.04% or above.
3) No member of Fire Company shall, at anytime, be permitted to “sleep off” their intoxicated state on Fire Company owned property. This includes all members, including those that participate in the live-in program.
4) The members of Fire Company agree not to consume any alcoholic beverages or illegal controlled substances while on fire department property, while on fire ground operations, while on fire department vehicles or while otherwise engaged in fire department activities. This includes all functions with the exception of a member’s participation in a private hall rental when he or she is engaged in Fire Company activities and the exception of Fire Company functions approved by the Board of Directors. The Board of Directors shall have the authority to enact specific limiting behaviors related to alcohol beverage consumption at Fire Company functions, including placing the Company out of service during the function.
5) No member of Fire Company shall come into contact with any Emergency Medical Services patient with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.04% or above or while visibly intoxicated or under the influence of an illegal controlled substance.
6) All members of the Fire Company shall sign this policy indicating that they have read and understand this policy, agree to be bound by the policy and consent to be tested for the presence of alcohol and/or controlled substances in accordance with this policy. Any member who refuses to sign this policy shall not be permitted to participate in any emergency or non-emergency Fire Company activities.
7) Any member of Fire Company convicted of driving at any time while under the influence of either alcohol and/or a controlled substance shall have their fire department driving privileges review by the Fire Chief for possible disciplinary actions.
8) No member, while wearing a Fire Company uniform, shall consume or serve any alcoholic beverages in public. This specific paragraph may be amended in writing from time to time by the Board of Directors relating to specific Fire Company functions.
9) In the event any member is suspected of violating the terms and provisions of this policy, the highest ranking Fire Company tactical or administrative officer may request the suspected member to undergo testing to determine the presence of alcohol or controlled substances. In addition, all members consent to such testing in the following events.
A) Investigation of a vehicular accident involving fire department apparatus or involving a personal vehicle while responding to a fire department alarm or function.
B) Investigation of a fire ground or training accident involving property damage or personal injury.
C) As part of the regularly schedule yearly physical examinations.
D) When there is reasonable suspicion of either alcohol and/or a controlled substance abuse.
SECTION 3 – TESTING
Testing for alcohol may be done by way of a Preliminary Breath Tester (PBT). In the event the results are 0.04% or above, the member shall have the right to seek private alcohol testing, at the member’s expense, to confirm or deny the results of the PBT. The Fire Company is not bound by the results of private testing and may make a determination based on the quality of the private testing and timing of the private test in relation to the time of the incident.
Testing for a controlled substance shall be performed by a health care professional as determined in advance by the Fire Company’s Board of Directors. All alcohol and drug testing shall be taken in accordance with the procedures prescribed by Pennsylvania Statute.
The Fire Company will not release the specific results of any specific testing to anyone other than tactical and administrative officers of the company. However, should a member request a hearing before the Board of Directors, the results mat be released as part of the hearing process.
SECTION 4 – HEARING
Any member who feels he or she is aggrieved by this policy may request a hearing before the Board of Directors at which the member may present evidence of any private testing or witnesses in his or her behalf.
SECTION 5 – DISCIPLINARY ACTION
Any member of Fire Company who violates this policy, including the refusal to participate in a test for alcohol or controlled substances is subject to discipline as determined by the Board of Directors. The penalty for a first violation is a minimum thirty (30) day suspension and up to possible termination of membership. Members of Fire Company’s Live-in program who violate this policy will lose their live-in privileges in for a period of no less than 60 days in addition to the disciplinary actions enacted by the Board of Directors. Any member of Fire Company who continues to violate this policy will have their membership terminated after the third (3RD) offense in any given two (2) year period.
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Permalink Reply by Greenman on
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This looks like an excellent policy and could serve a Model Policy for many other departments.
Thanks for sharing!
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For those Departments who currently have an on-premises bar, and are hesitant to close it because either a) members do like to hang-out there and socialize, or b) it serves as modest income stream for the department to help cover costs, maintenance of equipment, purchase of new equipment, etc... here's an idea.
Why not turn the beer bar into a Coffee House? This would work especially well for firehouses in the center of town, or near colleges and would do a couple of things for you. First, it gets the beer and booze off the property! Second, it continues to provide a relaxed atmosphere where Firefighters, their families and friends can hang-out, and socialize (including the Juniors/Explorers!). Third, it makes the firehouse inviting for civilians to stop in and get a latte and meet some of the members...which may even serve as a recruiting tool for new members! Fourthly, it promotes a healthier lifestyle among the members and the public!
If your station has room, consider hiring a "bar band" to come play in an alcohol-free environment and get even more young adults into the station where they might get a taste of the firefighting community and might come back for an open house (conveniently scheduled for a day or two after the concert) and might join the department.
It all works together. My main point is that there are other things to include in firehouse other than a bar. If your volunteer fire department is planning a new station, why not include something like a coffee house on the side with nice big parking lot away from the apparatus bays?
For many departments simply adopting a tough no-alcohol policy is enough, but for others the "Social Club" aspect is part of their tradition and not something they want to throw away. You can be an effective, professional department and still be a social network for your members, you just have to adapt to the times.
The Fire Service can be used to market a product, like Firehouse Subs in the Southeast, and a product can be used to market the Fire Service! Imagine the positive press you could generate for your department by shutting-down the beer taps and firing-up the espresso machine.
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Yes, he raised a good question - "What are we going to do about it?" A very fine question which we should brainstorm in this discussion. I will grant him that.
Unfortunately he didn't stop there, but went on to portray all firefighters as drunken stumble-bums, which I found particularly irritating. He also dredged up newspaper articles of emergency personnel coming to grief under the influence regardless of whether or not the person was on duty.
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