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SCBA on the Roof?
Below are a series of photos courtesy "FirehouseGuy" from theWatchDesk.com from a daytime house fire last week in Maryland.
These photos are circulating around the Web on sites such as Firefighter Close Calls on the aspect of firefighter safety ... with the site noting "No one hurt but good pictures from the scene drawing "THINK" attention to PPE, SCBA and roof operations. While we love roof operations when needed, we are don't love un-needed exposure to the smoke -- today's smoke is some nasty crap.....we need to THINK. 1000 active Firefighters die each year to cancer."
What are your thoughts and your department's SOPs for firefighters operating on the roof of structure firefighters?
These photos are circulating around the Web on sites such as Firefighter Close Calls on the aspect of firefighter safety ... with the site noting "No one hurt but good pictures from the scene drawing "THINK" attention to PPE, SCBA and roof operations. While we love roof operations when needed, we are don't love un-needed exposure to the smoke -- today's smoke is some nasty crap.....we need to THINK. 1000 active Firefighters die each year to cancer."
What are your thoughts and your department's SOPs for firefighters operating on the roof of structure firefighters?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Don Widing, Sr. on
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Four comments:
1. The Fire Chief needs to review NFPA 1710 and NFPA 1500.
2. The Fire Chief needs to establish effective Standard Operating Procedures
3. The Fire Chief needs competent Incident Commanders
4. Last Option: Confront the Brutal Facts - Replace the Chief - Before The Funeral(s)
From a Chief of Fire-Rescue
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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If the structure is not showing heavy fire and vertical ventilation is called for after a proper size up, then the roof crew would take a roof ladder, saw and axe to the roof.
Because ventilation MUST be coordinated, but is not and someone takes windows unbeknownst to the roof guys or IC, then the fire would accelerate much more quickly and especially under strong wind conditions.
But, that is not the case here.
Here, Paul Grimwood would call this the "Chain of Errors".
By the way, in his book Euro Firefighter, he goes into great detail on ventilation and anti-ventilation tactics.
Required reading for vent tacticians.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Damnthing,
I agree that if the possibility of collapse exists, that you shouldn't get on the roof, no matter what the pitch. On the other hand, if you don't use a roof ladder on a low-pitch roof, you always have the possiblity of stepping through a weak spot and either straddling a structural member (ouch!) or worse, punching through the roof decking into the fire.
I realize that sounding the roof helps, but in the above case, there is so much smoke that even if you sound every step, you may not step exactly where you sound, hit a weak spot, and punch through.
I used to do shallow-pitch roof work without the roof ladder, but after I saw a good friend punch through and severely burn both legs from fire shooting up inside his bunker pant ankles, I changed my mind. It's the same principle as walking on thin ice - the more surface area over which you spread your weight, the less chance that you will punch through.
I've seen some departments use roof ladders on a flat roof for the same reason. I disagree that it's seat belts in a parked rig...unless the rig is parked over the fire.
The bottom line is that it doesn't take either a fall or a collapse to either kill one of us, or to permenantly change life as we know it.
Ben
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SCBA should be used for all roof work. Even if you don't start in the smoke, you'll likely be in it before you clear the roof, regardless of technique or wind direction. I've seen the wind change direction in the middle of a roof operation too many times to trust it.
That said, there's no reason for vertical vent on this fire. The structure is pretty much totaled. If there is something savable in the other wing of the house, you can cut the fire off by pulling the ceilings through the bl0wn-out front windows and hitting it with a hoseline, or by hammering a piercing nozzle through the roof finish while standing on a properly-placed ground ladder.
This one doesn't pass a basic risk-benefit assessment.
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Permalink Reply by Batwagon on
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I can understand how you get to this point but, please USE YOUR HEAD. The IC needs to be able to think objectively and contilually reassess the risks. This is not a fire to sacrifice yourself or your brothers. Here's a small list of visual clues:
1. One Man Truck Operation w/o SCBA
2. Laddering in front of a vented window that your about to draw the fire to
3. Poor ladder selection ( I hope they used the right one somewhere else as a second for this Jake)
4. Why? This is now an attic fire thats venting out the B side. That roof terminates into the two story section. Breaching that common wall from the second floor could be a better choice. Then you're fighting from the unburned side and driving out via the open gable end.
5. Look at the band board. 2x8 band=2x8 rafters. Not much time until failure.
And that's just the first photo. I could go on about the others. But, what's more important is that this is our profession. Be an expert. Learn building construction; learn fire behavior; read smoke; know what your actions or inactions will do to the fire; constantly assess risk vs. benefit. Learn-Do-Critique-Repeat!
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Permalink Reply by Clark Lamping on
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Agree! No reason to be up there!
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Permalink Reply by Nick Morgan on
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There's clearly no good reason for the firefighter on the roof to not be wearing his SCBA. Today we know that smoke contains carbon monoxide, hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen sulphide, acrolein, carbon dioxide, carbon particles, and other crappy chemicals that don't belong in our lungs. If these same gases were reported leaking in a z-mat incident, we'd be wearing level A suits. Smokle that doesn't kill us now will probably give us nasty forms of cancer later on. It's just not worth it! There's no "glory" to being a "smoke eater" anymore. Now we know that it's just plain foolish.
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Permalink Reply by WHM61 on
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I must agree with all the previous replies "If your in the Smoke, You oughta have the SCBA on!!!"
It can also be sized up this simple, "This is not Your Father's Old Firefighting Days", there are too many toxic things in the smoke to be thinking we have leather or iron lungs...
A Department SOG should be simple, "If Your In the IDLH, You're in Your SCBA" and that is not the case your in XX days suspension, no questions asked.
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Whether you want to argue the wisdom of not using SCBA in reasonably clear conditions or not, it's better to err on the side of caution. For the real life 'what if' situation, you'd be irresponsible not to. I was venting a roof once and fell through, immediately joining the internal attack crew (much to their surprise, and mine). If I hadn't had my SCBA and properly sinched down mask and helmet, a trip to the ER with seared lungs certainly would have ensued. Never go on a hot house without air. Plus, what is that guy doing on the roof by himself? Always have a partner, Never leave your partner.
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Permalink Reply by Brian on
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Willie,
1) I don't see what the type of department has to do with anything. Career/Volunteer/Combo/Industrial doesn't matter firefighters are firefighters regardless of the type of department they come from. Don't turn this stupidity into a Career vs Volunteer fight.
2) Staffing, closest station, department portocals have no bearing on why this firefighter was not following proper NFPA Guildlines.
3) All suppression apparatus are mandated to have SCBA also under NFPA so the answer to your "Did the 1st in unit have SCBA's availible?" should be YES!!!
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Brian,
The type of department doesn't matter - the fire isn't going to ask if you're paid or volunteer if you go through the roof without a mask.
Ben
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