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Comment by Mike "Lapo" Lapotasky on June 1, 2010 at 9:08am

Pardon my pride in making the statement about the U.S. firefighting system. It is 70% volunteer by enrollment and we take our training very seriously.

I do appreciate your critique and apologize for not realizing you meant the clips. That makes sense but wouldn't we be talking about combined weight on just one clip and if my memory serves me correctly the decking is welded in places.

If I sounded defensive I was doing so to stick up for our private training firm who handles our certification for con-space rescue because they are throrough and know what they are doing. I distinctly remember that we determined the weight on the haul with the 4:1 MA was reducing the load on the decking that was also part of the framing for the hatch.

And Lutan...for the record...I do not like the euro helmet...Australia has much to be proud of and I did not intend to be condescending or insulting. Unlike some other people on this site (two in particular) I can be humble and apologize...so I am sorry for that...

If my math is right...600kg is over 1300lbs. That weight...broken down by a 4:1 MA leaves 325lbs. If our load was that great...I honestly would have been uncomfortable with this rigging. But our dummy for the drill and the two rescuers were only less than or equivalent to 150lbs. so on a 4:1 that change of direction anchor is being placed under 37.50 lbs. of weight.

Thanks for creating the conversation. Sometimes tone gets lost in translation with the written word and foul up communication...again all apologies..

Comment by lutan1 on May 31, 2010 at 2:09am

Mike, I won't harp on this, but see those little clips holding the decking in place? They're designed to stop a deck moving sideways and dislodging as a person walks on them. They're not designed or rated for an upwards pull which the redirect is currently doing. There's a chance that they could in fact fail causing some fairly serious injuries if someone happens to be in the firing line.

My point of highlighting what our standards are, is to illustrate the potential loads that can be placed on systems. In our case, a national committee of experts have deemed the rating of 6kN (600kg's) for any redirect anchor. I know you're not in Australia- I've given it as an idea of how others around the world do it as I thought it may be of interest and give you some food for thought, though I know you guys are "the superstars of the world" according to your response in the French Fire Helmet discussion..... ;-)

Comment by Mike "Lapo" Lapotasky on May 28, 2010 at 10:21am

Australian standards...6kN? Good luck finding that type of anchor point on the top of a container. The tripod, my friend is carrying the majority of the load, and if the change of direction point is compromised or weakened, remove it. I am never one to not take contructive criticism when it comes my way, but in this case...I AM NOT FROM AUSTRALIA. Here, according to our training, this rigging is fine. The manner in which it was used, which you could not know (because you weren't there and are taking it out of context) was done because of limited haul space, and there was a man hauling down from the tripod while the man on the tag end was pulling up. Through a 4:1 at the anchor point of the tripod, this change of direction was done on steel decking that is rated and was not being loaded or carrying the suspended weight of the recuer or the vic. I am sorry. I appreciate the comment, and you are part right in what you said, only it does not apply here. Thanks my Aussie brother. It's all good.

Comment by lutan1 on May 27, 2010 at 11:33pm

I'd actually argue that the decking is not a great idea unless it is properly rated. A redirect under the Australian Standards should be able to hold a minimum of 6kN. Pulling up in this manner (as oppossed to pushing down as a deck would normally be used) potentially exposes the installation method to an unsafe force.