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here is another --what would you do
2 door BMW 5 feet off the pavement on it's side hung up in a tree. The car is on a 60 deg slope and it's very slippery from loose soil, pine needles (6-8" deep) and moisture. The trees are 1 or 2 live ones the rest dead. The car snapped off a 16" dia dead tree and is resting on the trunk and a 14" dia live tree (trunk shown in pic #3 after the car was rolled over) . it is approximately 10 feet down a 40 foot slope. Front seat passenger is trapped and has a broken leg and rear seat passenger has a foot that is pinched between passenger side door and seat and a previous broken ankle . The bottom of the car as it sits (right hand side ) is 4 ft off the sloping ground at the front passenger , 5 ft at rear.
I am very interested in what folks would do. We had res-q-jacks, cutter, spreaders, air bags, truck mount winches,ropes and general rescue tools at our disposal. Wrecker was called but took 75 minutes to get on scene -- and it was a flatbed !
definitely appreciate hearing any ideas.
I am very interested in what folks would do. We had res-q-jacks, cutter, spreaders, air bags, truck mount winches,ropes and general rescue tools at our disposal. Wrecker was called but took 75 minutes to get on scene -- and it was a flatbed !
definitely appreciate hearing any ideas.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike "Lapo" Lapotasky on
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with patients inside? not too sure about that...
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Well put...
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Wow...
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You really are serious...are you an EMT? Rescue technician?
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Nevermind...I read your profile. I understand why you think the wrecker is a good idea. Hey...I know...lets just throw away all the rope training and just start building wreckers for high angle rescue now...
Sound ridiculous...?
There's your sign! -
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BTW...I'm only joking around. Wreckers are huge asset and so are experts like you. However, the only way I am comfortable with your way is if those entrapped are expired.
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Permalink Reply by Asst Chief Tim Cook on
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Yup,think outside the box. Dependant on severity and other factors but SOMETIMES the best way for fast access and care. NOT for all accidents. Based on the OP's description this one fits MY criteria for possible relocation.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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At virtually zero risk to the rescue personnel. Been there, done that, many times.
Use of wreckers - one time of many, and then just for stabilization, not for lifting.
Tat one time the patient was trapped so badly that lifting the truck would have lifted the car that was locked to it, and almost certainly injured the patient more seriously.
For my approach, you absolutely need a spreader bar. I don't want an angle - I want my cables/straps/chain extensions in parallel so that there's no pull into a diminishing angle. It keeps the force vector (the pull) in line at both attachment points that way.
Junkyard training is fine, but it's not 100% realistic. The vehicles don't really show real-wreck damage, there's no way to meld the metal from two different vehicles in a high-speed head-on, and there aren't any real patient safety or patient care issues to deal with in the junkyard. -
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Mike.NOT practical for all applications. QUITE practical for some. Spent considerable time with various Rescue agencies(Ems,Licenscing agencies,etc)offering ALTERNATIVES to commonly assumed "DON'T MOVE" scenerios(like YOURS) with SAFE,POSITIVE results. Like a lot of 'New" concepts,it takes a lot of practice and QUALIFIED Tow truck operators with EXPERIENCE in this type of work. I KNOW what my machines can DO AND WHAT THEY will DO. If it doesn't fit your "Regs" or models,then you will continue to operate as you have. Our Medics have SEEN it work, and circumstance depending are not hesitatant to employ the techniques if it will effect a better outcome for the patient(s). Todays modern towing equipment is a powerful LIFESAVING tool,in the hands of a competent operator.
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Ben, you and I will always have differences of opinion. Fine by me. Your area may well,and likely does, have different types of incidents,response and terrain than mine. You have access to rope gear and other tools that we don't and probably never will have. I also have a skill set that while you won't, and probably never will, use in your lifetime has none the less saved several lives in OUR area. I went with my dad on my first fatal when I was somewhere around 8 or 10 yrs old. At that time you had Portopower and Hacksaws,with prybars as your tools. At that time I set my mind to learning about Vehicle rescue and the tools to make the job easier with more POSITIVE results INCLUDING Tow trucks. Well,dad has passed ,but the lessons have NOT and we've improved what we can do with our tools CONTINUALLY since that day some 42 years ago.
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I just saw this post and wanted to discuss your point about terrain - and I'll include weather since that can affect rescue as much as does terrain.
Unless you work in a desert or somewhere that is so cold that the snow never melts, your terrain is probably not much different than one or more of the places I've worked. I've worked in places with serious, rugged mountains, long ridge-type mounains with large river valleys, foothill/piedmont areas, lakes, coastal plains, barrier islands, snow, heat/humidity, cold rain, and droughts.
High volume urban areas, suburban towns, rural areas/farms, and moutain wilderness are all included in the kinds of places I've worked.
Lastly, there are a lot more people in the fire/rescue community who have heavy lifting, heavy cutting, heavy shoring/stabilization, and at least basic low-angle rope capability.
I'm not ruling out the use of wreckers for extrication, but when you said "I also have a skill set that while you won't, and probably never will, use in your lifetime..." you hit the nail on the head.
I advocate for the skill sets that many FFN members have - or at least have at the basic level. Those skill set include ease of training and the ability to carry the necessary tools to the scene in a rescue truck.
The skills you advocate are possessed by a limited few, including yourself. Advocating those skills in lieu of improving the fire/rescue agencies and individual rescuer's simply isn't practical for the average FFN member. In other words, you advocate for skill sets that are rarities, while I advocate for skill sets right in the center of the Bell curve.
I've also seen wrecker drivers turn a simple extrication into a much more complicated problem, including causing additional injury to the patient and injuring rescuers. There are a lot more untrained wrecker drivers who confuse rescue with recovery out there than there are those who have the kind of skills you have. -
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I would agree with you in that respect. I agree that sometmes it is safer for everyne to relocate. These scenarios based on pictues and no real recon are hinky but we CAN learn from them, so they are valuable.
If your described process was smooth and easy, I would advocate it. -
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