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Rescue rack Bar - We can still using it?
Fellows, Do you have any information about the non use of the rescue rack bars?
A instructor told me that it's not recommendable to use this hardware piece becuase recent investigations, I looked after it on the UIAA but they don't say anything about it.
I have this big doubt and I dont see this hardware piece with the same eyes since that.
Keep safe.
A instructor told me that it's not recommendable to use this hardware piece becuase recent investigations, I looked after it on the UIAA but they don't say anything about it.
I have this big doubt and I dont see this hardware piece with the same eyes since that.
Keep safe.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Doesn't play well with others. on
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No I am not kidding.
Why is it that people in the training community feel the need to use a mechanical device instead of simple, proven rescue systems? I have looked at your hardware you talk about here and elsewhere, they are great, but why?
No hard feelings, just two different aspects on rescue. BOTH are safe, no matter your arguments. If they would not be, Proboard, NFPA and departments nation wide would not approve of their uses. -
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Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on
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Drew,
I am shocked that a department (or training program) condones the use of a munter for live load lowering. ProBoard and NFPA do not dictate HOW you complete a skill, so no reason to drag them into the debate.
The worst thing about a munter is it is not good for your rope as It contains tight bends and creates a lot of heat (remember moving nylon on nylon is a bad thing under load). Although I am glad to see you do use an XL carabiner.
Another issue with the munter is that adequate grip strength is required to control the descent.
A Gibbs as a belay? Who taught you all of this? Unless something has changed recently Petzel hasn't come out with anything saying the I'd passes a belay competency test. (There is a dealer in teh USA calling it a belay device, but Petzel hasn't issued anything stating it is)
I rarely use the words NEVER in this line of business, but given other options a munter to lower and a Gibbs to belay would NEVER be my first or fifth choice.
I do agree with you that the simpler you keep a system, the better it will be.
To lower 60'? I would use either an 8 plate (if a lighter load), brake bar rack or an I'd. -
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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I have used a munter as part of the radium releasing hitch and have no issue with that. It's a short duration and distance release hitch for a raising/lowerin system changovers. But not for a full blown belay, etc.
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Gibbs or prussicks not as the belay device itself, but as a progress capture on the safety line. No, no sorry for the confusion. A bar or device used, with a Gibbs to set the system.
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Not to mention there is additional friction inthe release to ease the stress on the munter.
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Permalink Reply by Lance Piatt on
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Rescue racks are unilateral units. They only go down. The biggest problem with the lack of training (for instance) is having to go in reverse (up and then down... again). Racks hold (generally) large loads, but nothing that other pieces do. The Petzl I'd for instance is amazing piece of gear (for one or two person loads). Lots on controversy (most of it is unnecessary and found on a lack of understanding of the physics involved). One main draw back is the lack of passing the "whistle test". Again, the I'd does. Check out the videos here. Nothing is perfect, the rack really limits your ability to be versatile. http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/videos_rope_rescue_techniques_e.... Lots of information here, but notice the functionality of the I'd.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Gibbs are not safe for use as a progress capture device. I've seen three system failures with these...
A rope cut with a Gibbs that didn't engage immediately, then shock loaded the system. The result was melted rubber coating on the Gibbs, exposed metal teeth, and a cut rope.
A stripped sheath on a highline that was being tensioned...fortunately, no one was on the system at the time, but it cost us a brand new rope.
A cut rope on a tension diagonal, also fortunately with no one on the line at the time. -
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Most of the time, you only need the line to go in one direction, and if you're using a top-rope rescue, that direction is down. The only time you need to go up is if you don't have enough rope to reach the ground (remote rescue) or a lower floor (high rise rescue). That is rare indeed. The rack is simple, easy to operate, and less expensive than the ID.
The ID is fine, but you simply don't need to use it most of the time.
Also, the main line doesn't have to pass the whistle stop test if the belay system passes that test. -
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Ben, I'd argue that the whole system has to pass the whistle check. We have redundancies on redundancies for that just in case moment- what if the belayer fails in their duties?
There should be no other descender for rescue except a double stop device... -
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Luke, I disagree.
If a tandem prussic belay or other whistle stop belay is in use, it doesn't matter a whit what descender is in use. If the main line or the main line anchor system fails, it doesn't matter if a double stop device, a Figure 8 plate, a brake bar rack, a 540, a Troll ALLP, or a carabiner wrap is the main line friction device. If the main line fails, the friction device is not connected to the load. If the anchor fails, the friction device is not connected to the anchor. If the friction device breaks, it doesn't matter if passed the whistle stop test 5 minutes ago.
If a whistle stop friction device isn't being properly tended and the primary system and/or anchor fails, then it will either catch the load or it won't. Regardless, the failed main system won't help the people hanging on the rope, regardless of what friction used to control the descent prior to the system failure. -
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Permalink Reply by Jimmy Lin on
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Actually,we always use the bars between the ladder to make a "rack".
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Me thinks this comes down to interpretation and what's been taught.
My interpretation of a whistle stop is that the moment the whistle blows, the entire system should stop, not move at all, and require no physical intervention. -
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