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REDUNDANCY: Do we really need all that stuff?
We pack and carry all that stuff to our scenes. It's bulky! It's heavy! OMG !!! Do we really need all that stuff? How many times as an instructor have I heard that. What do you think? I want to hear your different veiws. There are difinately different approachs to redundancy in your rope rescue systems if your from the east or west coast, not to mention the no coast (midwest) of the United States. How about from your part of the world. Why do we build redundacy into our systems? And sometimes redundancy to the redundancy?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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I actually don't use redundancies unless the client specifically asks for it.
To give some background, I sed to work for one of Australia's leading harness and accessory manufacturers and used to travel up and down the east coast teaching HV tower rescue, rope rescue, confined space rescue, etc.
The company was adamant that we teach the client to set the system up properly and to use the system properly. No slack in haul lines, good anchors, correct loadings, etc, etc.
I liked it and continue to teach it.
I often ask clients ehre do you draw the line? When is 1 redundancy or back up in your system eneough? Why not put in another in case the first one fails, then you better put in another in case the back up's back up fails, etc!!!! -
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To add to the above reply, the fire brigades over here in Victoria, Australia are running 13mm ropes and twin rope everything.
I mean, c'mon! We can be safe and we can be overboard. When was the last time you heard of an 11mm rope failing when used properly and safely?
13mm ropes are painful at the best of times- on a recent confined space rescue training course, the team set up a safety line using 13mm rope. Within an hour they were screaming about the pain in trying to use it. I refused to let them change it out- my response was that it was what they grabbed from the truck, they grabbed it for a reason and they were going to use it. I did this to highlight the issues in selecting the right piece of equipment and knowing how to use it properly.
Jim, check out my blogs I've written- they in part talk about some of these issues.... -
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Permalink Reply by Jim on
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By safety line, are you refering to a belay or backup to the mainline. If so, was it dynamic and 13 mm (1/2 inch, for those that are not used to thinking in mm)? Or are they using low stretch (static) for belay? I teach the use of dynamic for the backup, if the AHJ requires it to be used in the system.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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There can be some big problems from using dynamic belay (backup) lines.
In a main line failure, there may be enough stretch in the dynamic belay rope that the load may hit bottom before the belay stops the fall. This is a similar problem to the rip-out shock absorbers sold as fall-arrest links for confined space rescue...they extra length they add to the rope may cause the load (rescuer and/or patient) to hit bottom. -
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They promote and use 13mm static.
We can't use any dynamic ropes in our systems- it is aginst our national standards for industry... -
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I have quite a bit of experience in climbing on dynamic rope and in using single-rope technique for rescue. I don't use dynamic rope for rescue or use single-rope technique, simply because those techniques add unnecessary risk.
I've seen 11mm rope fail several times when used in supposedly "proper" and "safe" ways. I've seen the sheath strip off the rope when being tensioned as a highline, I've seen a bad fall from a cam cutting another rope, and I've had a friend killed from a rope breaking while on a single 11 mm rope. Personal experience simply isn't an adequate data set when we're talking about the accident information that's available on the 'net.
There are some additional issues here. First, "proper" and "safe" are subjective terms that are difficult or impossible to define in objective, technical terms.
Fire-based rope rescue teams use heavier rope specifically because it will withstand more damage without failure. That kind of damage can easily happen in the fire, structural rescue, and industrial rescue situations that fire-based teams handle. Chemicals are another factor that wilderness and remote-area rescue teams rarely face.
Redundent belays - one is the right number. Any more than that just gets in the way, but it's nice to know that you don't have to trust your life to a single system where the failure of any one link can kill both you and the patient. There are a lot more sharp edges, metal flakes, high-abrasion surfaces like masonry walls, etc. in the areas that fire-based rescue teams cover than the typical remote area or Alpine-type rope rescue team has to deal with.
As far as 13mm rope (actually closer to 12.5mm, at least in the U.S. fire service) goes, what do you mean by "screaming in pain"? Were the rescuers doing naked body rappels on it? Or, do you mean that they were using 13mm rope with hardware and pulleys that were designed for 11 mm rope? That's a common occurrance with teams that don't have the right gear. Simply buying NFPA-rated General Use hardware that is designed for the larger-diameter rope will remove that particular "pain" from the system. -
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Great reply. This is exactly the type of discussion I hope to promote. I do have a question about one thing in perticular that you raised. That would be that you are using 11 mm for highline work? Is this a high point to another high point? If so, how do you justify the side angular tention on the system when using 11 mm rope for the purpose?
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Also I realize that dynamic rope can stretch as much as 40-50 % of the length of line. There in is the bennefit of it if there is a failure of the main line with a sudden fall. It should take the sudden impact much better than a secondary static line. Also the patient would not have as abrupt a fall after failure. There are obvious must that should be done to assure safety. First the back up line should not be allowed to have any slack. Second is is the use of proper dressed prusik of appropriete type , size, and I beleive should be triple wraped and used in tandom. Any misaplication failure by the rigger could cause the secondary fall to travel further.
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Is this standard through out the UK or just Australia? What do you use for high lines?
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After reading another entry by you, I think that I was refering to a different application than you werer asking me about. The article was your experience with a recent ConSpace class and 13 mm rope.
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Sorry about the delay- on the other side of the State delivering teaining.
I was referring to a CSE/CSR course, but my sentiments are still the same in relation 11mm versus 13mm. I still beleive it is overboard. -
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There are some additional issues here. First, "proper" and "safe" are subjective terms that are difficult or impossible to define in objective, technical terms.
I take on board what you're saying, but it is still my belief that 13mm is overboard for many applicaiton- a highline, though, is perhaps an exception to that rule due to the incredible loads and forces being applied.
As far as 13mm rope (actually closer to 12.5mm, at least in the U.S. fire service) goes, what do you mean by "screaming in pain"? Were the rescuers doing naked body rappels on it? Or, do you mean that they were using 13mm rope with hardware and pulleys that were designed for 11 mm rope?
Naked rappels is just an image I don't need!!!! You're right- they were using 13mm on equipment supposedly designed to accept 13mm but is primarily designed for 11mm. Thus why I wouldn't let them change it out once they discovered their error- they needed to learn the importnace of selecting the right equipment for the right application. (There was also no one in danger by using the equiopment/system they configured, thus why I let it go) -
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