Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Scott on February 10, 2008 at 9:32pm

I am assuming with this you are talking about figure 8 on a bight, which even if tied improperly won't come undone, it does of course weaken the strength. But I see no harm in tying a safety, I always put a safety just to be on the safe side. I guess its all personal preference though it is good to still do it. Did you the videos online or training DVD's because I would like to see those.

Permalink Reply by SMOKEnPipesJim on February 19, 2008 at 6:47pm

Marc On one hand I dont want to get involved in all this..lol on the other hand, Climbers once rappelled
putting the rope between the legs up over the shoulder around the band... I've done bail out techniques using a bite around my boot , standing in a bite held in my right hand at my chest ..lol the idea of technical rope systems and redundancies is to safe guard and "idiot proof" the whole thing... I've seen know it alls wrap a rope around a ladder belt harness and with a resounding I'll show ya how its done.. and watched the guy free fall down 60 feet of rope burn... yet how easy it is , to do, and how easy It can be to screwup... I did a Course in the 80's in the white mtns of New Hampshire I dont even want you to know some of the stuff we did, and....." lets get the NFPA involved" ok , "if you cant enter a building without proper redundancies in place 2 in 2 out 2 standingby and 2 standing by to stand by for the 1st standys, two pumpers two water sources two supply lines from differant water sources two buildings with 2 fires two rooves to open with two saws and two guys with two axes to back up the two saws , each with two differant gasoline sources,RIT, BUTTRIT** etc etc"... NOt saying to be unsafe and the bigger the "load" the more redundancies should bein place, time is a factor of course .. In the overall picture tieng a safety shouldn'tbe a life threateningventure if it is maybe we should practice our knots more ? lol

**BUTTRIT Back Up Technically Technical Rapid Intervention Team LOL

Permalink Reply by Chris Burke on September 10, 2008 at 8:32pm

As opposed to tying the 8's witha safety, yes I agree not required after doing pull tests of our own...but old habits die hard...besides it takes 2 seconds.

Do you leave the knots in the system..pretied for rapid deployment?
Have you used the pre sewn end by Sterlig rope...no knots required..

Thanks..

Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on November 5, 2008 at 8:37pm

There has never been a documented case, even in testing when a figure 8 on a bight has come untied under a load. Some knots are enherently tight and do not need a safety. The base of he eight will pinch the rope in half when it fails. This means is you are heavy enough to make that happen your safety knot will still be attached to the main line as you fall toyour death! :)

I leave it up to the student and the client. It doesn't matter to me and I don't think is either way is wrong.

Permalink Reply by Wayne on November 5, 2008 at 9:15pm

What making a safety knot does is forces you to have/create the extra tail that sometimes is too short. May be an issue with certain knots like a ringbend or loose knots like the bowline.

I agree with Jeff as well, a figure 8 when tied properly will never benefit from a safety knot.

Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on November 6, 2008 at 8:10am

Chris,

I leave no knots in the rope..other than prussik loops. Just like you, the rope needs a chance to relax. Leaving tensioned knots in rope over a long period of time damages it. It leaves creavaces for dirt and debris to collect, which can enter the knot and weaken it. I hope anyone that does this takes the knot a part to inspect the rope. When they do you usually find pitting in the rope where the knot compressed. Wouldn't you consider this a sign to retire the rope?

I am not a big fan of pre-rigs either. Although, if I were to have 1 item pre-rigged it would be a mini 4:1. (Jigger, inchworm system...) This is one of the most versitle perices of equipment out there.

Here's some of my reasoning:

1. People rely on the pre-rig because it is, well, pre-rigged. They loose skill by always going for the easy thing. This is the same reason why I don't rely on anchor straps. Anyone can wrap a sling around a tree, but a rope technician actually ties the anchor! (Not to mention a Wrap 3 pull 2 is stonger that most anchor slings!)

2. I go to a clients department and ask to see what they have pre-rigged. They get it I remove it from the bag and we spend a couple of minutes fixing it. Pre-rigs can get tangled, knoted, or even reassembled incorrectly. You can build a new system that you know is correct in less time.

I have seen the presewn rope by Sterling. There are also sewn pussik loops out there. Again, knot tying is a basic rope skill. Do you really save that much time having a loop already in the rope? I can tie a CORRECT figure 8 on a bight in less than 10 seconds.

Permalink Reply by Arthur Hayden on November 6, 2008 at 9:21pm

I have always been told if you have at leased a three inch tail on the figure eight it will not come apart. But I still always tie the safety just because thats how I was taught.

Permalink Reply by GW on December 6, 2008 at 1:10am

The back up know will probably never be the difference between success or failure of the system--but then again--who ever expects the unexpected--and what usually gets us killed? My vote is to safety the knot--unless you can show me any benefit...more that 2-5 seconds time savings--from not safetying the knot--my vote will stand.

Permalink Reply by Dave Reed on January 8, 2009 at 3:52pm

This push is a New Generation trend
it comes from over cofidance in equipment and a sign of over-all lack of expirence.
It also comes form people who don't really spend much tome hanging on a rope .
I can tell you I have spent most of my adult life on and off the job-- on rope
as Mountain guide , FF and a USAR Specialist
if you have the option back it up
Adding Safety knots no harm no foul

Permalink Reply by Doesn't play well with others. on October 2, 2009 at 12:01pm

I have been exposed to some testing by NCRC, NASAR, RESET, etc... A figure 8 with a four inch tail will not come undone. That said, if you feel better tying a safety in it, go for it.

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