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Wearing PPE and Turnout Gear on Calls
Ok, I've said it here before and I'm asking, no, begging for an answer for what I truly believe to be a very important question. I am a volunteer, along with a training officer, on a small department in very rural Iowa. We roll about 15-20 calls a year. We are currently in the process of updating our turnout gear and have it ordered to be delivered in about 4-6 weeks for the whole department, which I find to be an achievement as our current gear is approximately 22 years old.
That is what brings me to my question. As one of our three training officers, I find it extremely important to demonstrate proper fire ground tactics and using proper PPE. I usually wear at the very least my turnout pants (that include my gloves and tools) and boots on every call, (which most are field fires I don't find it completely necessary to wear my coat and helmet on a field fire when it's warm out) and structure fires I am in full turnout gear. When I joined the department 2 years ago, gear was not typically worn on any call. I have literally seen my veteran guys going into smoke filled houses in their street clothes with no SCBA or turnout gear what-so-ever.
It was noted at meeting after a structural fire in a large commercial facility (where most were not in gear) in our district about 9 months ago that we should be wearing turnout gear on every roll, to which everyone agreed and applauded at the time. Since then, we have had approximately 8 calls, 5-6 small structure fires including mutual aid. On those 8 calls I would say myself and 2 other members are the only ones who showed up in turnout gear every time, out of an average 7-10 responders.
Tonight, we rolled on a combine fire burning in a harvested corn field. Myself and one other member had gear on, out of 8 responders. The 2 of us were the only ones on the scene which I felt should do any work on the fire, because we were in proper PPE. Our assistant chief was on top of the machine in street clothes, and was the highest ranking officer on scene.
So, how do your departments mandate that members wear gear or get left out at the scene? Especially when the more higher ranking, more experienced members are not wearing gear. Our chief and assistant chief are some of the most guilty of being where they shouldn't when they are not wearing PPE or turnout gear, along with numerous other veteran members who apparently think they don't need it. I know that it's important to lead by example, and I am trying to lead that way considering I am one of the training officers, I am just wondering as a newer member how to correct this problem. I obviously don't want to see anyone hurt on a call and I know I want everyone to go home to their families when we are done with every roll out.
Thank you all for your answers as I'm sure I will get many helpful hints. I apologize for getting a little windy on this but I am very passionate about this issue.
Brent
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jim Conrad on
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I cant think of another option if the members don't start wearing the PPE. How could someone stay training officer if the guys wont wear the PPE? It not only puts the offending members at risk but puts everyone at risk if something goes wrong and a rescue must be made. I sure wouldn't trust my chief to do "the right thing" if someone got hurt or killed if he wont even make the guys wear PPE. The buck is going to stop at you, right or wrong.
You are going to have to take a hard line for your sake and for others. You have to get the Chiefs to support you by wearing their gear and making a policy that makes it plain that with no gear you cant fight fire. You can bring up all the regulations in your plea but I doubt that will do any good, they have probably heard it all before.
I would say however that someone is going to get killed and the newer guys are learning how to fight fire incorrectly and in the most dangerous way possible. The veterans are supposed to be setting and example and mentoring the young guys, and the example being set is going to get someone killed. If the Chiefs cant get behind that I don't know what you can do.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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Everyone agrees wearing PPE is not optional.
An extreme measure you might employ: Ask the Chief if he has his funeral plans in place and make sure the department has all the information to make the necessary notifications and carry out the family's wishes. Since you have a ticking time bomb you might as well be prepared for the worst.
Also, you might mention that no LODD death benefits will be paid to the family of a firefighter who defies the standards. Example: Not wearing a seatbelt can stop LODD death benefits.
Bright side: When the new gear arrives everyone will suddenly be proud to wear it!
Good luck. Hope everyone stays safe until you get this resolved.
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Permalink Reply by Thomas J. Champion on
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I worked in the same fire station on the same shift for 21 years. Just in the past 5 years have I been around VFD'S one thing I see is most Departments have an annual election of officers. This is bad news situation. Officers are not elected based on training it's a popularity contest. If the chief want's to keep his position he can't piss off members. Therefore he or she will not enforce any rules if he or she wants the votes again. So even from the start the system is in place to keep it soft. I started of with 23 members once I got rid of the dead weight the people who would not show up for training, runs, meetings, or work details im down to 14 members but thats fine. The 14 I have are worth there weight in gold. Sounds like the chief needs to grow a set and show them the SOP'S or show them the door. It's not that hard.
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Permalink Reply by AJAYI OLAYINKA on
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Let those in charge know the importance of PPE while doing fire fighting that it protect, prevent the body from be hurt by fire.
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Thomas, you mention that it is not that hard. I hear that a lot. Who gets to show everyone the door? The officers? The Chiefs? The Mayor or county commissioners?
How can it be so easy to fire all of these volunteers when so many VFDs are full of the good ole' boys and dead weight?
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Permalink Reply by andrew shapiro on
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Brent, I would go the "liability" scare route if I were you. Does your department, your city or township -- or whatever the authority having jurisdiction -- have any idea what kind of liability they are opening themselves up to in this matter? Such monumental negligence in the modern courtroom heaven forbid? The lawyers will be beyond salivating!
And the insurance companies would bury your department once and for all. A little education to your leadership on this subject might be the only way to change their way.
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Hi Jim
Case in point. Right now I have a member on the VFD who at this point in time has not been to one meeting this year. He is 100% deficient in all required training for the year. Of the 146 runs this year he has been on 1 . He let his first responder laps he did not show up to required CPR training. During annual hose testing day he drove by and waved did he stop to see if we could use an extra hand NO. During annual pump test he drove by and did not stop. Just 45 minutes ago we were sent mutual aid man power needed to a tree into the power lines on fire that was ascoss a state highway. I drove by the station his truck was there I went on to the scene. Once complete I went to our station he was still there playing games on the computer. What would you do what woud you say. My grangfather and dad were career firefighters I my self have been career for 36 years. I will show a slacker to the door in a heart beat and not think twice about it. I have a job, kids, house to take care of and a part time job. I still have time to show up for runs, training, and work assignments. If you have a member who is not ther for runs, training, meetings, and you get rid of them what have you lost I know the answer NOTHING. A name on a roster will not save a life or protect property if they are not there. Stay safe Jim.
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Hey Jim
Sorry I forgot a few more points. This would be the same person who would only wear part or none of there PPE on a run. PPE that may be needed to save my ass at some point in time. To some who are vollies it's a hobby you can pick them out when the pager drops they drive like a bat out of hell talk 100 MPH on the radio. Its not like working at wal-mart if a person works there and marks the product price to high no one wants it ih he or she marks the product price to low the company will lose money. In the fire service if we screw up sombody will die or lose everthing they own on this earth. So I agree with you on the safety angle. On top of that its OSHA, NFPA and Department SOP. Some members only want a cool shirt to wear a radio and a blue light that's all that's the same person who will not give 100% and will not follow the play book they are roge firefihters. Firefighters we dont need. By the way I have been a command level firefighter batt chief and above for the past 21 years and conduct training in the fire service in all 50 states and Canada. So yes I have the balls to remove a non player it's life to me. Stay safe Jim.
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Permalink Reply by Scott miller on
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As a training officer myself I have had the same problem with some of the old timers. You need to reiterate over and over the need to wear ppe's. Cover the liability the city will have to deal with if someone is injured. Also make sure your chief and assistant chief understand that anyone injured on their department makes them liable and could extend to a civil lawsuit. Every training make the whole department turn out in ppe's. Stress the importance of why we wear our gear on every call. When members turn up at a call without their gear make them go back to their vehicle and get the gear on. This includes the chief if you can get him on board your job will be easier. When we train its in our gear and when someone shows up at a fire and doesnt have their gear they either go get it and put it on or they go home. I cant tell you how many guys ive pissed off and told them to go home because they wouldnt put on the gear. If you are an officer act like one. Lead by example and dont back down from anyone, eventually they will come around and start wearing the gear.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Pawlowski on
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In Georgetown,DE (Station 77) we run about 500-520 alarms a year. They may range from Medical assists, coverage for a neighboring station, automatic alarms/alarm company alerts, vehicle accidents, field/woods fires, and structural fires. We are REQUIRED for ALL calls to be in full turnout gear before you ever step on any piece of equipment. This means you will be in helmet, coat, pants, and boots for every call regardless of the nature. For fires when you step off the apparatus you will have all gear on including your Nomax hood, fire fighting gloves, and packed up with air flowing. For vehicle accidents you will be in full gear including extrication gloves and safety goggles/safety glasses.
In the past even back in the early to mid 90's we had several "old school" guys that would run into a burning house without be packed up, however they DID have gear on. We called them smoke eaters. Now like MOOSE stated....these days houses and even cars are put together with so many synthetic materials you can never be too safe. Inhaling smoke from these types of materials will kill you or make you sick way quicker than just plain burning wood. Even if you respond to a field fire as you say that you guys respond to several...the pesticides that are sprayed in fields are harmful enough, let alone if you are inhaling smoke that has these chemicals in it. Bottom line is: YOU CAN NEVER BE TOO SAFE!!! In our department, if you approach the scene without the proper gear on you can be subject to a suspension starting with a 30 day suspension. If your Chief decides not to lead by example, maybe it's time to replace him. For the ones that disguard thier PPE, make examples of them.....serve them a suspension. If they take pride in doing the job, they wont have a problem doing it correctly and safely.
Thanks for your time and concern regarding this issue. I encourage you all to check out our website www.georgetown77.com Thank you all!!!
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Permalink Reply by Paul Sawyer on
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In australia its manditory even for us volunteer brigdes to wear full turnout gear to every job. In saying thst we have two different lots of turnout gear. Our yellows which are for grass fires or bushfires and out structal gear for almost everything else
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Permalink Reply by Robert Bates on
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I have been a full-time firefighter since 1989 (and an on-call member fo a differetn department for 3 years prior to that) and I am a huge proponent of full turn-out gear for everyone except the driver. I have found that I personally cannot drive safely and have also seen that turn-outs can impede proper operation of the apparatus while responding. The driver must have his full complement of gear with him and put it on once on scene, but is not requried to utilize his hood unless he feels it is necessary. If a member is entering a compromised atmosphere - either fire or CO exposure - the must be in full turn-outs. But I personally forgot to put on my hood during a signiicant CO response (meter was maxed out and 3 people were signicantly ill) and entered the property to do a multi-level search for more victims (full gear - including airpack - except I forgot to pull my hood up - no heat, no hood) and we proceeded to search and clear the structure. As we were returning to the first floor level a Chief Officer accosted me in the stairwell (no ppe and no airpack) for not having my hood on. My officer at the time palced himself between the two of us because I was in the process of pointing out (with the pick head of the axe) that he had no ppe or airpack at all in an atmosphere that was determined to be over 800ppm of CO due to a malfunctioning heating system.
PPE kept me alive that day even thoguh not worn entirely due to the situation but it is imperative that it must be used at all times
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