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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on December 17, 2009 at 10:25am

You know talk about emotional responses to threads.

I rarely if ever respond to such threads to send condolences and so forth, not because I don't care, I just don't care for doing so online in a public forum.

What I do have an issue here is that a self inflicted gunshot wound (suicide) is considered a LODD. I have been on threads before about the people saying what is and isn't a LODD and what defines and the people who say "We need to be safer, we are still suffering the same LODDs as in years past" but yet we can define a suicide as a LODD because the person decided to off himself while on-duty? Sorry I do NOT agree.

What precidence does this set? Are we now somehow promoting suicide? "Gee it is OK you are feeling this way....instead of seeking help I can off myself while on duty and be considered a LODD" "Gee I can have my name in the ring of honor with all those other firefighters who died in the line of duty at the memorial in Emmitsburg".

Sorry, I heartily disagree with this even being considered a LODD. Suicide is the most cowardly and selfish act that anyone can commit. It is something that people should seek out help for and while this can be a loss for the family, the dept and so forth, suicide should NOT be considered heroic in any way nor should it be recognized by the USFA. This was a cowardly selfish act and should not be placed in the same definition as those who died in the line of duty nor should it be viewed as a LODD.

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Permalink Reply by Dan Pooley on December 17, 2009 at 12:36pm

Let me start off by saying I had the pleasure and honor of serving under Assistant Chief Thompson for 4 years. He was a leader, mentor, and friend to me and countless others. Second, if his passing is considered an LODD or not isn't up to you or me. That decision is made by people smarter than you or I. You, along with everyone else, are allowed an opinion as to whether it is or isn't. Here is where I have a problem; reading your post and the way you wrote it comes off as disrespectful to me. Now I don't know if you intended it that way (and I sure hope you didn't!) but personally knowing the man I would never say something like that, so where do you, an outsider, think you have the right to say what you did? Have your opinion and share it with your friends (if you have any) but keep it off of public forums like this. It's people like you that disrespect the fire service and those in it with dumb comments. Let me pose this question to you, the overweight and out of shape firefighter who has a heart attack and passes in the middle of the night. Is that an LODD? Like I said, the decision to make the passing of Assistant Chief Thompson (or anyone) an LODD is not up to you or me. Just try to be a little more respectful in the future, ok?

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on December 17, 2009 at 2:09pm

so where do you, an outsider, think you have the right to say what you did?

No Dan, I didn't know this man and I am not judging his character or what kind a person he was because of this act. However, I do not agree in any way shape or form that a suicide should be anywhere considered a LODD. As firefighters we are trained to push emotions aside to focus on the task at hand. As firefighters we have seen the stressors of the jobs deeply affect people and have unfortunately seen suicides of firefighters in the past. As a service we have tried to prevent such things and to encourage people to seek help for such things.

Let me pose this question to you, the overweight and out of shape firefighter who has a heart attack and passes in the middle of the night. Is that an LODD?

I have mentioned this before and don't agree with how the USFA determines a LODD and such things can be a fine line. The difference is what is and isn't immediately preventable. Sure a heart attack may have been prevented, but can you easily say that it was because a FF was overweight that caused the heart attack? Hell, even those FF's who died in buildings could have been preventable, but the situation involved determined fates. Suicide on the other hand IS preventable and should not be considered a LODD because someone decided to kill themself while on duty.

Have your opinion and share it with your friends (if you have any) but keep it off of public forums like this.

This is a public forum for opinions, whether agreed or diasgreed with.

It's people like you that disrespect the fire service and those in it with dumb comments.

Disrespect the fire service....hmmmm. WRONG. I may not agree with what the USFA is considering a LODD and I do not agree with someone committing suicide as a LODD either. I rarely seen comments of yours anywhere else for you to make such a snap judgement because of my opinion here. On the contrary, it is because I respect the fire service that I brought up my opinion on a touchy subject. If suicide is considered a LODD and somehow "glorified" then how do we go about preventing it?

It is not like I have not known people who committed suicide. After our LODD in 2006 we lost another firefighter to suicide in 2007. I felt the same way then as I do now about suicide and do believe it is a selfish and cowardly act. I even lost a little brother to suicide, a person who's character I knew and understood much better than even my brother FF. I still felt the same way about suicide then as I do now and felt his death was a cowardly and selfish act.

Suicide is preventable and just because this person was on duty at the time he decided to kill himself should not be considered the same LODD as the firefighter dying in a fire. No, I don't make up the rules, but when the USFA uses LODD as stats to promote safety and so forth and say despite our best efforts we are still losing about 100 FF's a year, sorry I don't agree.
Then what about if benefits are paid out because of this? What kind of message does that promote to the fire service? That suicide is OK if you do it while on duty?

I am not bashing the character of this man here Dan. I'm sorry you and your dept as well as his family have to go through this. I know from personal experiences how a suicide can affect the family and a dept. I don't consider suicide a LODD and do not think it should be honored as one. I have known many great firefighters who had great character, great personalities and some of the best people one could know who have died outside what would define a LODD. They were honored as well, but why shouldn't their name be on the ring of honor at Emmitsburg? What kind of message does considering a suicide a LODD now send to the fire service?

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Permalink Reply by blair4630 on December 18, 2009 at 3:21pm

I, like John, do not think this should qualify as a LODD. This death was not caused directly or indirectly by an alarm of any sort, or any sort of response. Not only does this become very questionable as to what should qualify a LODD, but like John said, could even prompt others who are considering it to do the same, due to benefits received for the family, etc.

As far as the out of shape firefighter who has a heart attack at a scene, if he's actively participating in a call, I would say that it does (and the USFA agrees) qualifty as a LODD.

I'm sorry for your (and your dept.'s) loss nevertheless.

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Permalink Reply by Dan Pooley on December 21, 2009 at 4:42pm

If it is an LODD or not is not my point here. That's not for me to decide, I have my own feelings on this subject but out of respect they won't be shared here. My point is simply this; don't let one single act define an entire career. Chief Thompson spent the better part of 16 years in the fire service. He came up through the ranks and earned his titles through tireless hard work and dedication. His efforts are present throughout Thurston County Washington and the entire state. He was influential in Thurston County Medic One with EMS and helped form the Thurston County Training Consortium which trains every firefighter in the county. I could go on and on, his body of work in 16 years is second to NONE and he has left a lasting impression throughout the region. So to say he does not deserve to be honored is complete crap. He is more than deserving of the highest honors, he left a lasting impression on countless young firefighters... me included. This one act cannot erase all the man has accomplished in his career, and if you knew the entire story, that is more than most accomplish in a career twice that long. Now don't get me wrong, I’m not condoning suicide in any way shape or form. It doesn't solve anything; it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem which leaves way more harm than good. All I’m saying is that I choose to honor Assistant Chief Greg Thompson for the good that he did, not this one final act. I'd rather remember the good times and all he taught me and if anything reach out to one another to make sure this kind of thing never happens again.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on December 21, 2009 at 5:40pm

So to say he does not deserve to be honored is complete crap. He is more than deserving of the highest honors, he left a lasting impression on countless young firefighters... me included.

Not saying that at all. The difference though is being considered a LODD, there is a good chance his name is put alongside other FF's in Emmitsburg who died in the line of duty who didn't commit suicide. There have been countless firefighters who have done phenominal things for others as well as the fire service who have died outside what constitutes a LODD. They have been honored by fellow FF's and have been remembered but their names are not at the memorial in Emmitsburg. My whole point is that what type of message does this send to the fire service, if we recognize a suicide the same way we do those caught in a flashover or collapse during a rescue....suicide is OK? Also what message does this send if benefits are paid out because this is considered a LODD? That it is OK to commit suicide? That despite the fact you took a "permanent solution to a temporary problem", that benefits can be claimed? Even many insurance policies have a suicide clause in them.

All I’m saying is that I choose to honor Assistant Chief Greg Thompson for the good that he did, not this one final act.

Absolutely. Honor the good, remember the good, I'm not judging this person by one act, I am judging the effects such an act can lead to others in the fire service.

if anything reach out to one another to make sure this kind of thing never happens again

Same here. As a service we have seen people in good and mostly bad times and are the people called to intervene. As a service we have learned to recognize the same warning signs in ourselves and coworkers that we have seen in the general public. As a service we have developed means to mitigate such emotions and to seek help when needed, from CISDs to EAPs. As a service though we have not been completely successful in preventing all brothers and sisters from conducting such a final and extreme act and is the reason I don't see that the fire service should be looking upon a suicide in the same light as those who weren't able to control their fate.

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Permalink Reply by blair4630 on December 22, 2009 at 2:08am

I'm not in any way saying this solitary act dismisses an entire career or 16 years of service and accomplishments. By all means, honor the fallen brother.

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