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Permalink Reply by Timothy John Dodson on March 14, 2013 at 10:04pm

I have never had that happen, either.If anything, law enforcement personnel wanted us to treat an arrested subject's injuries because the jail would not accept them unless those injuries were treated.

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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on March 16, 2013 at 7:33am

I've never heard of an officer refusing to allow treatment of a prisoner. I suppose it's possible. If I were instructed not to treat a prisoner and I felt like he/she needed treatment I would document the heck out of it and get a good signature from the officer on the AMA form because we would no doubt be going to court.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on March 17, 2013 at 12:09am

Where are you getting such questions posed? Is this from a dept training standpoint or from a teaching standpoint? Curious as to the spurring of the question and the context.

 

Personally, I think the question is reaching and entailing too many "what ifs" that realistically could only be answered by LE personnel. Quite frankly I have NEVER, EVER, seen nor heard of a LEO withholding medical care. In fact I tend to see the contrary where EMS is called for those in custody who could be easily given a ride to the hospital by the officer. Quite frankly I believe the question is overreaching and is really non-concerning. The chance of this happening is very few and far between.

 

For the most part LEOs are not going to withhold care or treatment of anyone in custody, there is too much at stake, especially in the case law aspect of things. We work in proximity to a PSO dept (combo of LEO, FF, and Medic) where they still will get EMS to respond for pts needing medical care while in custody, regardless they themselves are paramedics. We also have a jail and prison within our jurisdiction and the jail will not take people into custody unless medically cleared by the hospital first.......reversely, we have transported many patients from the jail for any myriad of reasons. The point is we have been in many EMS situations with law enforcement and never once seen a situation where a LEO withheld medical care.

 

Quite frankly, I think you answered the question correctly, but I see no reason to dwell on it. I DO know there are cases of EMTs who can be overzealous and may not be looking at the overall picture, but I would highly doubt you would see ANY LEO withholding care of a person in custody. Personally I think this was a question of "what if" just to spur "participation". However, the easiest reply is EXACTLY what Norm said......DOCUMENTATION. There is no reason to try and "reason" with a LEO etc or whatever. If you are on the scene.....for whatever reason (quite frankly it is the LEO calling YOU) and a LEO denies you treating a person in custody....document it. That simple.

 

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Permalink Reply by Russ on March 17, 2013 at 11:17am

John: i work in a very diverse state and area where no idea is too crazy. When i was a probie i recall being told that just when you think you have seen it all, here comes something new.

dont take this the wrong way please but whenever i think about posting something here i fear being thought of as an idiot because i know that confilict begins when somebody says something and someone else interprets it wrong so believe me when io say that when i do post a question to the forum, i want and hope it will be worth the readers time and it will stimulate some thought because i have posted BS questions and apoloigized for it

this came up during a Q&A session during a medical training session (along with did i believe that obamacare would put an increased call load on EMS in the future)--i left that one alone

this question came up in relation to a review of on scene crew safety when responding to calls involving violence or proceedures to take if you are treating a person and it becomes a hostage situation or any unforseen violence occurs (the county just began a new on scene emergency proceedure) and afterwards i called for questions and it just came up

i imagine it was asked because of misconceptions pertaining to law enforncement's moves on scenes in the past where we live and in other areas..."to give you a funny"- some years ago i listened to a cop at an accident scene declair a person dead and cancel ems and fire. EMS and fire arrived and discoverd that the "dead person" had a pulse and was transported but died 3 day later

i train my folks to keep their head on a swivel and try to see everything and watch your partners back but not to a paranoid excess that effects patient care. we usually get 3 to four folks on our VFD first responder rescue calls so i tell the folks to let 1 or 2 do the treating and everyone else watch out for the unusual because we dont need 4 people hovering over one patient then EMS shows up now its more crowded

I think CJ Townsend gave the best answer and i thank you and the others for their time

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Permalink Reply by Russ on March 17, 2013 at 11:34am

thank you

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Permalink Reply by Russ on March 17, 2013 at 11:34am

a very inteligent answer and i thank you but if a cop prevented me from treating a person i would document it to hell and breakfast to cover my ass

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Permalink Reply by Russ on March 17, 2013 at 11:35am

hell yes document to CYA and i thank you for your response

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Permalink Reply by Timothy John Dodson on March 17, 2013 at 11:36am

Anytime.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on March 17, 2013 at 12:52pm

this question came up in relation to a review of on scene crew safety when responding to calls involving violence or proceedures to take if you are treating a person and it becomes a hostage situation or any unforseen violence occurs (the county just began a new on scene emergency proceedure) and afterwards i called for questions and it just came up

This is what I was thinking was the reason for the question....that it came from a "class participation, what if" point as opposed to perhaps actual occurrence. It is fine to open the question up further, but for the most part, you really aren't seeing these events happening with LE deny EMS to perform patient care. Even in your accident case scenario and the LEO declaring the person dead and cancelling EMS and fire......that is a mistake, but it wasn't like he was preventing EMS from accessing the patient or denting them from contacting the patient.

 

The cases of LE cancelling or downgrading fire and EMS occurs often, which is why majority of depts still have response continue in to confirm on their own. There have been many fires etc where LE said it was out or whatever only for it not to be. However, there is a big difference between such a thing like that and having a patient in custody and LE denying EMS from accessing the patient.

 

The ONLY time they may be able to deny EMS access is if the person is not restrained and they are considered dangerous. That becomes a scene safety issue and about protecting the EMS providers. However, in most cases, EMS is arriving after LE and it would be extremely rare that EMS would even have to convinve a LEO to allow them to check out a pt, let alone a LEO denying access. In the end it is all about documentation.

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