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Shane Ray's "Rethinking Volunteer Firefighter Certification" article will make some waves...
The new superintendant of the South Carolina Fire Academy asks some tough question and offers some creative solutions to the problem of volunteer firefighter certification and just what that should mean.
Here's the article: http://www.firefighternation.com/article/training-0/rethinking-volu...
It is thought-provoking, to say the least. What do you guys think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on
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Yes, that is exactly what he is saying.
He beleives that only personnel big and bad enough to operate interior should be firefighters, and called firefighters, and that exterior-only personnel are really not firefighters (since they don't go interior) and shouldn't be used. And they certainly should not be allowed to achieve a certification since they are only make believe firefighters.
And yes, he does not believe that exterior-only fire departments are really fire departments.
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Ou, Ou Ou can I answer ?????????
If a career department had an infinite amount of positions, like many VFDs, yes, i would have no issue with exterior only personnel, but they don't, so you select the most qualified personnel. in addition, they are paid professionals, and with that comes the expectation of them learning how to do the job to the best of thier abilities given that they are paid to train.
Now a volunteer department has, in theory, a infinite number of members so guess what? When you have members that can't or choose not to go interior and you still have the funding to provide them with PPE and radios, you can still have them on the department,
My combo department runs 85% EMS .... Is fire response still the biggest part of the job? 70% of our fires are brush fires, 20% are vehicle fires, 5% are structure fires and 5 % are other fires . Is going interior really the biggest part of our jobs?
Even my VFD that does not run EMS does less than 100 runs a year with 2-3 structure fires. Is going interior and structure fire response the biggest part of the job on that department?
Going interior doesn't make a firefighter. Yes, interior operations are a part but certainly one can be a firefighter without operating interior.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Bobby,
I didn't ask you that question. Besides you have stated over and over and over and over to the point of ridiculousness that you are NOT primarily a firefighter and generally do not respond because it interferes with your fire prevention/fire safety education job.
And, sorry no, if you can't, or won't, go interior you are not a firefighter. You may be an auxilliary member, or a support member of the fire department but you most certainly are not a firefighter.
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WestPhilly,
I don't care if you want to have a designated Exterior position withn your fire department. I would never support it in any FD I am a member of. I believe that every member should be a firefighter, meaning they should be able to operate interior should the need arise.
IF, your FD is only capable of exterior operations I believe it is your moral duty to clearly explain that to your citizens.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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"And, sorry no, if you can't, or won't, go interior you are not a firefighter. You may be an auxilliary member, or a support member of the fire department but you most certainly are not a firefighter."
Now THAT is past the point of ridiculousness. Your definition of firefighter is not accurate, and it disagrees with the many dictionary definitions of "firefighter" posted elsewhere in this thread.
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I didn't dodge anything. I made it very clear that IFSAC Firefighter II is the minimum certification for firefighters in my department and that even our pump operators go interior.
That pretty obviously means that we don't have any exterior-only positions. Continuing to ask if I would support a position that I've made clear my department doesn't have is past the point of silliness.
I see you finally came up with a cut-and-paste set of definitions for "Standard" and "Certification". Given the format, I'm betting you plagarized those definitions, since you did not attribute the source.
If you actually do understand the definitions, then why did you claim that I said that there was no national firefighter standard when I clearly said that there was no national firefighter certification??? (There is no such certification)
Going interior is not required to meet the definition of "firefighter". If you know how to look up the dictionary definitions of "Standard" and "Certification", you should be able to do the same for "Firefighter"...you know, the definitions that don't include a definition of the location from where some fires are fought?
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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Don,
If all a community can muster is three little old ladies willing to form a bucket brigade, then that's the fire department and they're the firefighters. I agree it shouldn't be that way, but that's irrelevant.
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Ben, Ben, Ben....
How can you support a position of Exterior firefighter if it isn't good enough for your FD? Seems kind of bizzare to me.
Sorry to disappoint you but I came up with the definitions all on my own. I didn't plagarize anything.
Actually, IFSAC is a National Certification that has been used by the US military for decades, as well as 33 states, and the District of Columbia. National Pro Board covers 32 states.
Thanks again for showing that while you cry crocodile tears about being attacked you have no problems firing snotty attacks every time you post. I find it amusing to say the least that you don't believe that anyone could come up with a definition of 2 such simple words off the top of their head. Especially 2 words so commonly used in the fire service.
I eagerly await your next attack...for it seems it is all you have.
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Don,
If all a community can muster is three little old ladies willing to form a bucket brigade, then that's the fire department and they're the firefighters. I agree it shouldn't be that way, but that's irrelevant.
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"How can you support a position of Exterior firefighter if it isn't good enough for your FD?"
That's another false dilemma, Don. What my department chooses to do has no bearing on what any other department does, or what our state fire academy does. My department works hard to get our people the certifications we choose to use. That's common sense. It's also common sense to support other departments who don't have the same resources, community support, or local tax base. Common sense is NOT involved in trying to force a one-size-fits-all approach on places where it clearly doesn't fit.
"Seems kind of bizzare to me." What is even more bizzarre is your continued use of logical fallacies while trying to make it seem as if you have a point.
"Sorry to disappoint you but I came up with the definitions all on my own. I didn't plagarize anything." Acorn, Blind Squirrel?
"Actually, IFSAC is a National Certification that has been used by the US military for decades, as well as 33 states, and the District of Columbia. National Pro Board covers 32 states."
IFSAC is flatly NOT a national certification. It is not used uniformly in all 50 states. Ditto for Pro Board - a different certification. There are also states that use neither Pro Board or IFSAC certification. The lack of uniform use of either at the national level means that neither is a national certification. And as stated elsewhere in this thread - by people who went to those schools - the U.S. military doesn't uniformly use any certification but the DOD certification...which isn't the same as IFSAC.
So to repeat in simple, direct terms, there is NO national fire certification. Your own numbers are all the evidence needed.
"Thanks again for showing that while you cry crocodile tears about being attacked you have no problems firing snotty attacks every time you post."
That's a big bucket of B.S. I don't cry, I just point out facts. If you don't like it, T.S.
I have not called you names, nor have I conducted any personal attack on you. If I'm wrong, post an example. Pointing out your use of logical fallacies isn't an attack on you, it's just pointing out that you are using nonsensical arguments. Pointing out the holes in what you say is not an attack, either. You, on the other hand, engage in namecalling, mischaracterizations, and insinuations that have zilch to do with the topic. I am unsurprised that you don't seem to be able to tell the difference, but that difference indeed exists.
"I find it amusing to say the least that you don't believe that anyone could come up with a definition of 2 such simple words off the top of their head. Especially 2 words so commonly used in the fire service."
If that is the case, then you should be even more embarrasSed that you claimed that I said one when I said the other - at least twice - previously in this thread. You have yet to respond to my pointing out your bogus claim that I said that there was no national STANDARD when I said that there was no national CERTIFICATION. You then went to great lengths trying to show that there is a national certification...using the Pro Board and IFSAC certifications that are not used in many states as the examples? Dude, your own numbers show that neither of those is the national certification that you claim them to be....unless somehow the United States suddenly dropped 17 or 18 of the states from the country while I slept last night.
"I eagerly await your next attack...for it seems it is all you have." More B.S. I haven't attacked you even once.
You sure have posted a lot of responses for someone that was supposedly "done" with me days ago. That is consistent with the level of reliability of your arguments here.
Or...are you just using the next in your long line of mischaracterizations in an attempt to get the last word when your own arguments debunk themselves?
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Actually, Don, WestPhilly's point is VERY relevant. Not only that, he is correct.
Once again, you don't get to decide for everyone else, no matter how much you try.
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Ben,
I see that Don has reposted my post. Was his comment deleted?
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