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Shane Ray's "Rethinking Volunteer Firefighter Certification" article will make some waves...
The new superintendant of the South Carolina Fire Academy asks some tough question and offers some creative solutions to the problem of volunteer firefighter certification and just what that should mean.
Here's the article: http://www.firefighternation.com/article/training-0/rethinking-volu...
It is thought-provoking, to say the least. What do you guys think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on
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And in that situation my hope would be that the department members responding thinks long and hard about they are to do, and makes a decsion based on conditions and capabilities rather than emotion.
I would hope that they are very sure that those guys will come out before they make entry.
Of course,the exterior firefighters ventilate and conduct an exterior attack and knock down the fire from the outside, ventialte to improve visibilioty and suvivability, and establish a water supply, and then, depending on conditions allow the 2 interior personnel to make a quick entry for rescue only, or possibly they wait wait until mutual aid arrives to make entry.
The occupants may live because the exterior fighters gave the operation sufficiant manpower to darken down the fire allowing the 2 interior folks to make a quick entry, or they have bought some time for additional interior members from the mutual aid department(s) to arrive and make the rescue. That wouldn't be possible in most rural communitiesserved only by volunteers or combo departments with 1-2 paid staff in this 4-state area without exterior firefighters
Or maybe the department sdue to fire conditions or lack of interior manpower cannot make the rescue and the occupants die. And sometimes life sucks. And sometimes we can't do a damn thing to change that.
But at least they had a better chance than they had with 2 interior members. And nobody else.
I would not seeing your scneario happening in my combo department just due to the manpower avaialble, but yes, it's a very real possibility in my volunteer department. The only thing that saves us there is the fact that the nighboring city will give us all 5 on duty members, but even then, it's a good 10-25 minute response time depending on the location of the fire, so that may very well be a situation we could face this afternoon.
And as an officer, I am 100% prepared to make the call that we will not enter in that situation, and the occupants will likely die. I have already made that call one time in my career, and there isn't a day when I would look back and change the decision I made.
Again, in some communties, you work with the resources you have and at times, that will mean a bad outcome for the occupants and/or property. And in many cases, we can't do very much to change that
So your option would be what? Having interior members only and having those 2 interior personnel as the only members on-scene? Given tour feelings about exterior members, would be the situation in many of these small communities, especially in this part of the country. The fact is that in many of these small riural departments if you took away the exterior members, your 12-20 person department is now a 5-8 person department.
This has nothing to do, in most cases, with a lack of desire on the part of these folks to do all that they can, including interior operations. But it has to do with a limitation that they, or in some cases, the fire department, has recognized, and has found a role for them wiithin thier limitations.
Again, these departments do not choose to have to rely on exterior members to operform exterior tasks. I am sure that if you asked the command staff of any of these small rural VFDs, they wouild all tell you that they would love to have a full roster of interior members, but in this area manpower restraints due to the community sizes or demographics, and yes, the free-time options that make people choose not to join the fire department due to the time demands, it simply ain't gonna happen.
And guess what. Most departments in this situation that i work with are making every effort they can to increase thier interior abilities. But you can only work with who you have and who you can attract.
These departments are very well aware of what they can and cannot accomplish and in many situations they simply will not be able to rescue someone. the training and the resources in their departments simply will not allow that to happen. Sorry. And they know that often the best stop they can make is preventing it from spreading to the neighbors house.
So what's the better option? have A 5 or 8 person fire department fire department of interior only members that now have to perform interior and exterior tasks, including driving multiple tankers, or a 5-8 person interior staff supported by 10-15 exterior personnel and drivers. I know what I would choose.
Again, limited manpower pools means yiou always can't get the fire department that you would like. Sometimes it means building the fire department around what is available.
Exterior members are exterior for a reason, such as physical due to age or injury, psycholigical limitiations that they cannot overcome such as clausterphopbia or simply a recognition that due to work or family they do not have the time to train as interior. Telling them that they must be interior will not change that. it will only force them out leaving most rural VFDs with very few personnel.
maybe in Wisconsin, that is something you can do, but in my experiences in 3 states, including 2 in the northeast, your situation where you can demand interior or nothing is the exception and not the rule.
And would love to be able to have those exterior members take a test to be certified.
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Really, so because somebody has a bum knee, but can still perform many exterior tasks, and simply doesn't trust himself inside a structure, he isn't dedicated enough?
Or somebody is working 2 jobs and recognizes the fact that he simply does not have time to train to FFI level, but does have the time to train on exterior skills, you don't want him working with you and you think he is not dedicated enough?
Wow. I guess in your perfect world a lot of the best damn firefighters I have ever worked with wouldn't cut it with you because they are not dedicated enough to the craft of firefighting.
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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
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The "bum knee" argument is quite vague. It would depend on how "bummed" the knee was. Is it bad or well enough to work safely on the fireground? Can the "interior" FF trust that he can climb the ladder, haul hose or whatever job as needed, without him going down due to knee failure? Sure, that person may be very much dedicated, but should he (or the knee) be trusted (for lack of a better word) to be a part of the necessary operations of fire suppression or rescue?
If the knee is not bad enough that he can still perform those duties, then, over time, should he be able to train to FF1? If not for his own safety, but for the safety of his "brothers"?
It is not a matter of dedication alone. It's also a matter of time constraints, the "want" or desire and cost to do it as well as other variables. And there are ways to accomodate to those issues, in the form of grants, and weekend classes for a period of time. I was going to bring up fundraising, but don't want to go back to the community support, or lack there of , discussion. It's already being discussed. However, sometimes those issues cannot be dealt with, and they will have to do the best they can, or close the dept.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Don,
Why would you advocate for meeting a "watered down" standard like FF1?
After all, FF1 doesn't meet all of the NFPA 1001 objectives.
You have to meet ALL of the NFPA 1001 objectives for FF II certification in order to do that.
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Two inaccuracies and a BIG problem with that.
1) Firefighting is NOT "all inclusive". There are jobs that can be performed on the exterior, there are jobs that can be done on the interior, and there are jobs that can only be done from the driver's seat, pump panel, or turntable.
The qualifications for those three things are not the same, thus there is no "all inclusive".
2) EMS is all-inclusive just as much as firefighting, although sometimes in different ways. I'm a paramedic, but when I'm on scene with other EMS providers, I count on all of them to know and fulfill their role within their level of training and scope of practice.
The BIG PROBLEM is that when you call for every firefighter to be able to go inside if necessary, how are you going to magically going to generate those firefighters in places that do not have them and have no realistic way to get them?
Are those fire departments supposed to go out back to their firefighter tree grove and pick a few Firefighter IIs? Visit a Firefighter cloning factory for some product? Hope that other firefighters insistence that they train people who don't have the time or medical clearance to meet 1001/1582 will move to their town and show how civic-minded they are...or what???
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Your insistence that recognizing reality is "regression" is incongruent with either the facts or with reality.
All that Shane is proposing is to certify people to do exactly what they are already doing. That's an improvement on the current situation, and that's not regression by any rational definition.
Your insistence that every firefighter become interior qualified will just shrink manpower even more. It won't magically create more interior firefighters, it will just drive the exterior firefighters away.
That will hurt community fire protection.
That will increase property loss.
That will result in fewer, not more interior attacks, which in turn will lead more savable fire victims dying due to lack of rescue.
In the places that are under discussion getting enough interior firefighters to do what you want simply is NOT going to happen. Continuing to call for it won't make it happen and it ignores reality.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Gosh Ben,
Every FD I have ever been on, volly, POC, or career, considered driving and pumping a job you were taught AFTER you completed your training as a firefighter. Not instead of being trained as a firefighter. In fact it is considered a promotion in most places, not a place to stuff people that don't want to be real firefighters.
So let me see if I have this right. You are comparing First Responders, EMTs and EMT I's to your exterior firefighters because they aren't paramedics. Are you insane? Tell me the last time you heard of an ems call where the medical people stood outside and did nothing until the meds arrived. You can't because they don't. They do patient care within the scope of their training. They don't stand on the front lawn, wring their hands and say nothing can be done I am not a paraGod so you will die.
Wow, you can't keep on topic at all can you? you keep expanding your absolutely delusional nonsense farther and farther with every post. Who said your vollies had to be trained to FF2? Last I knew all of us supporting standards were talking about FF1 as a minimum. Did you run out of nonsensical BS to battle that with so you had to expand it to add FF2?
So let me see if I have this right Mr ParaGod...You are advocating having members of the fire department that have absolutely no medical clearance at all. So you would take a guy with a heart history that is morbidly obese and let him be an exterior firefighter. Because if you have no medical standards and don't require a realistic firefighter certification standard that may be exactly what you get. I would strongly suggest that you review and update your LODD practices...
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Don,
It's time for you to stop making things up and trying to claim that I'd said them, then using them in a childish attempt to somehow create ridicule. It just makes you look increasingly silly, dude. Here's why...
"Gosh Ben, Every FD I have ever been on, volly, POC, or career, considered driving and pumping a job you were taught AFTER you completed your training as a firefighter. Not instead of being trained as a firefighter." It has already been pointed out to you many times that other places do it differently than what you're used to, and that you don't have the right to insist that your way is the only way. I've been a member of three different volly departments in two different states that had several driver-only members. They were good at the job and we were glad to have them.
Most imortantly, and not for the first time, Your expectations are overly narrow, they are not realistic, and you don't get to set the rules for everyone else. That's arrogant.
"In fact it is considered a promotion in most places, not a place to stuff people that don't want to be real firefighters." Prove it. No more of your empty bluster - prove it. You can't, because it's not factual. Then you used that bogus "real firefighters" comment. As the dictionary definitions I posted show, your definition is not congruent with the facts.
"So let me see if I have this right. You are comparing First Responders, EMTs and EMT I's to your exterior firefighters because they aren't paramedics." Several things inaccurate about that one...
I'm comparing people with varying EMS certifications to people with varying firefighting certifications, because both of them demonstrably exist, not because they are not paramedics. You just made that up. I also made that comparison because both fire and EMS people with different certifications have different scopes of practice - another similarity. Also, I have no exterior firefighters, so your use of the term "...your exterior firefighters..." is demonstrably inaccurate.
"Are you insane?" No, but given your insistence on posting things that are demonstrably delusional, that does beg the question about you.
"Tell me the last time you heard of an ems call where the medical people stood outside and did nothing until the meds arrived. You can't because they don't. They do patient care within the scope of their training. They don't stand on the front lawn, wring their hands and say nothing can be done I am not a paraGod so you will die."
What a bunch of complete and utter B.S. that is. NO ONE stands on the front lawn wringing their hands and doing nothing.
"paraGod" ...one of the silliest things you've ever said here, and considering how utterly silly you've gotten, that took you some work.
O Wow, you can't keep on topic at all can you? More of your silliness, since I was responding to other people's comparisons of fire and EMS. Then again, since I'm the originator of this post, it's pretty for you to try to tell me what the topic actually is or how I can approach it.
"you keep expanding your absolutely delusional nonsense farther and farther with every post." Incorrect, since I can support everything I've posted with actual evidence and reason. That excludes it from being delusional. You, on the other hand, have nothing but your own narrow, biased opinion supported with nothing but personal attacks and things you made up out of thin air. An example of your delusional nonsense is your claim that exterior firefighters stand in the front yard and do nothing. That's not true, and you know it.
"Who said your vollies had to be trained to FF2?" No one said that. You are still incapable of paying attention, aren't you? What I said is that based on the distinction of of "lesser standards", that ANY firefighter that is not certified to FF 2 is certified to a "lesser standard". Since FF 1 is a lesser standard than FF 2, my statement is accurate. Since FF 1 does not address all of the NFPA 1001 standards, that's another reason my statement is accurate. Since no one said that anyone's vollies had to be trained to FF2, your question is ANOTHER of those straw man logical fallacies to which you seem to be addicted.
"Last I knew all of us supporting standards were talking about FF1 as a minimum. Did you run out of nonsensical BS to battle that with so you had to expand it to add FF2?" Wrong again. What was actually under discussion was the NFPA 1001 standard that includes FF2. Pay attention...PLEASE. And since I - unlike you - have demonstrably posted no nonsensical BS, that's another straw man.
"So let me see if I have this right Mr ParaGod..." If you think that kind of childish namecalling either adds to the discussion or somehow supports your position, then you really didn't think. That doesn't surprise me.
"You are advocating having members of the fire department that have absolutely no medical clearance at all." No, I'm not, and once again, you're just making it up. What I said is that some departments don't have the funding to get all of their members NFPA 1582 physicals. Further, I advocate for all firefighters having a medical clearance, but with the NFPA 1582 standard clearly applying to interior structural firefighters, some of the things that medically disqualify people from being interior firefighters might not disqualify them from being exterior firefighters.
"So you would take a guy with a heart history that is morbidly obese and let him be an exterior firefighter." B.S. You just made that up. I've never said that nor anything like it.
"Because if you have no medical standards..." There you go with the false dilemmas again. I never said anything about "no medical standards". What I did say is that the medical standard for exterior firefighters doesn't need to meet the NFPA 1582 medical clearance for INTERIOR firefighters...because it doesn't.
"...nd don't require a realistic firefighter certification standard that may be exactly what you get." That's complete B.S. Exterior Firefighter certification is EXACTLY a "realistic firefighter certification, as it certifies exterior firefighters in EXACTLY what they do.
"I would strongly suggest that you review and update your LODD practices..." You crossed the line with that one, Don. It's completely offensive to my firefighter friends who have died in the line of duty and their families and friends. Unfortunately, there have been several. Every one of them had at least the qualifications you espouse, too. You sound just like the underwear salesman that said the same thing to me here a couple of years ago. Are you an underwear salesman?
"Have you completely lost it?" Not at all, but things aren't looking good for you in that area.
I'll now sit back, wait on you to make up something else and take me to task for things that YOU actually say. Confidence is high...
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Nope Ben,
I am done with you.
I am eternally grateful that I live in a state that has a minimum standard for firefighters, including volunteers. The class is Entry Level Firefighter. NO ONE can operate on the fireground in the hot zone EVER unless they have at minimum completed Entry Level Firefighter. In fact, to be a member of a fire department Entry Level Firefighter is a State REQUIREMENT. SCBA use is taught, as well as live fire training, ladders, search and rescue, water supply, forcible entry, ventilation, salvage, overhaul, and fire behavior. What your FD decides to utilize you for afterwards is up to them, but EVERYONE gets that same initial training.
So EVERYONE could go interior if they had to. That is the point that those of us that are opposing the exterior only firefighters are making. Maybe you don't ALWAYS utilize them as interior, but if you HAD TO you could. Of course every volly FD has guys that would rather pump, or drive tankers, or whatever, but the difference is if the shit hits the fan they could go interior and save victims or their fellow firefighters if they had to. It is really that simple.
You say it is impossible for some FDs to train their members to FF1, I'll counter that by saying it is becoming the norm in my area. (I know Ben, I live in the land of make believe, and just because it happens here, and should be a model for the nation, somehow makes it irrelevant in your mind. Although you and Bobby paint your gloom and doom scenarion like it is common across the nation.) Both of the POC FDs I am a member of have made FF1 the minimum. Heck my career job had FF1 as a minimum standard to be eligible for hire.
Enjoy, continuing to push for lessening the basic firefighting standards. I am also eternally grateful I don't live in your state, or that of Bobby.
Oh, grow a thicker skin about the paraGod term. That is commonly thrown around on my career FD in good humor.
Do you know the difference between a paramedic and God? God knows he isn't a paramedic... Most people in the fire service laugh at that. My guess is you got pissed off.
HAVE A NICE DAY!!
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Don,
"Nope Ben,
I am done with you." OK.
"I am eternally grateful that I live in a state that has a minimum standard for firefighters, including volunteers." So much for you being done with me. Can't you make up your mind?
Actually, I live in a state that has a minimum standard for firefighters, too. We have one standard for interior firefighters, another standard for wildland firefighters, another standard for ARFF firefighters, and now we're going to have another standard for exterior firefighters.
"The class is Entry Level Firefighter. NO ONE can operate on the fireground in the hot zone EVER unless they have at minimum completed Entry Level Firefighter. In fact, to be a member of a fire department Entry Level Firefighter is a State REQUIREMENT. SCBA use is taught, as well as live fire training, ladders, search and rescue, water supply, forcible entry, ventilation, salvage, overhaul, and fire behavior. What your FD decides to utilize you for afterwards is up to them, but EVERYONE gets that same initial training."
Wonderful...except that the Hot Zone at structural fires is on the interior in an IDLH atmosphere. That makes your state's Entry Level overkill for those that don't do interior firefighting.
"So EVERYONE could go interior if they had to." That is much, much more disturbing than having a distinct difference between interior and exterior firefighters. What are those "if they had to" firefighters going to do when the make that occasional entry? If they're not the regular interior people, their chances of getting hurt or killed increase exponentially.
"That is the point that those of us that are opposing the exterior only firefighters are making. Maybe you don't ALWAYS utilize them as interior, but if you HAD TO you could."
And that, Don creates a SERIOUS false sense of security. At least exterior-only firefighters KNOW that they aren't going in, instead of making an occasional entry for which they may have the certification but probably don't have either the experience or the situational awareness to operate safely on the interior. Your argument is the best one yet for having interior-only firefighters.
"Of course every volly FD has guys that would rather pump, or drive tankers, or whatever, but the difference is if the shit hits the fan they could go interior and save victims or their fellow firefighters if they had to. It is really that simple."
No, it isn't. More likely, they're going to go inside, get themselves in trouble, and start the tag-team LODD process for their fire department.
"You say it is impossible for some FDs to train their members to FF1, I'll counter that by saying it is becoming the norm in my area."
So what? In my area, the norm is FFII. That doesn't mean that I don't understand that not everyone has the resources to do it the same way my FD does it.
"(I know Ben, I live in the land of make believe, and just because it happens here, and should be a model for the nation, somehow makes it irrelevant in your mind." No, it just makes it irrelevant in places that don't have the resources your area has.
"Although you and Bobby paint your gloom and doom scenarion like it is common across the nation.)" Straw man argument - you really are hooked on just making it up, aren't you? Neither Robert nor I painted any gloom and doom. We painted REALITY. It IS common in many places. It's common enough in my state that our fire academy is developing the Exterior Firefighter certification objectives for those who only need that level of certification.
"Both of the POC FDs I am a member of have made FF1 the minimum. Heck my career job had FF1 as a minimum standard to be eligible for hire." Bandwagon logical fallacy. What your departments do have no bearing anywhere else.
"Enjoy, continuing to push for lessening the basic firefighting standards." You are confused and you're making a false claim. You are confusing basic INTERIOR firefighting standards as being the basic firefighting standards when they clearly are not. The existance of exterior firefighting standards make that plain. Further, I'm not pushing for lessening anything. Having an exterior firefighter certification INCREASES the basic firefighting standards, as it provides state-level training and certification for people who are currently performing exterior firefighter duties with neither training or certification.
"I am also eternally grateful I don't live in your state, or that of Bobby." That's probably a good thing. If you lived in some parts of my state, your neighbors would probably run you out of town if you talked to them the same way you talk here.
"Oh, grow a thicker skin about the paraGod term. That is commonly thrown around on my career FD in good humor." Instead, why don't you stop using silly diversions when you can't respond with some facts. Given your personal attacks in this thread, it's apparent that YOU are the one with the thin skin...VERY thin.
"Do you know the difference between a paramedic and God? God knows he isn't a paramedic... Most people in the fire service laugh at that. My guess is you got pissed off." You guessed wrong. I'm actually LMAO at you trying so hard to divert attention from the fact that you apparently understand very little about either paramedics or God.
"HAVE A NICE DAY!!" I have nice days all the time, but thanks for the good wish.
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"Good reasons for lesser standards??? Are there really ever any good reasons? All of these are excuses, not reasons, to lessen standards."
Really?
Not having the population to recruit those with the ability to meet some higher standard is an excuse?
Not having the money to get your firefighters the legally-required NFPA 1582 annual physicals is an excuse?
Not having the money to purchase SCBA and PPE that meet the legal standards for interior firefighting is an excuse?
Sorry, John, those are not excuses, they are very valid reasons.
And John, for places that have NO firefighter certification for their members who do not now and will never be interior firefighters, an exterior firefighter certification isn't lessening the standards, it's actually increasing them.
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I can't beleive how opeople get so bent out of shape about the concept of non-interior firefigjhters.
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