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Seat Assignments in Rural Department?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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There is no problem with trying to get something like this in place. I have seen places where riding assignments were in a spot near that seat to give a heads up on the role and tools to grab. For instance youngest FF is water supply and pickhead axe, for investigation, they take the water can and pickhead, etc. It would be good to bring this up to your command staff and give some ideas and examples before just implementing.
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Permalink Reply by Brennan on
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Seat assignments are good as long as you train and use them often. Otherwise people don't remember what there job is. Just say you've got the nob, I'll get the tools and jonny you've got the hydrant. Its all about communication. Good communication will work better than any seat assignment...
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Permalink Reply by Clay Reynolds on
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Have to agree with Brennan on this one. I was going to try seat assignments on my dept and I realize that usually the same firefighters usually respond on the truck due to their close proximity to the station however there is always those exceptions and there in lies the problem, that and not always remembering the assignment. As with anything on a dept communication is the key and what we've done is the officer decides who's on the truck and what they're capable of doing and will give assignments accordingly.
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Permalink Reply by captnjak on
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If you don't have seat assignments you have to make assignments on every response. This doesn't seem very efficient. How do you communicate? Face to face? How does this occur once members have begun to operate? If members are operating in remote positions, which they usually are, face to face isn't possible. So you have to use radios, but how do you address each other? By name? What if there are two guys named Bill? If a guy can forget his assignment before arrival, can't he forget it after arrival? Especially since it can be changing on every run?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the way you guys operate. It wouldn't be the first time, since I'm on a large urban full time department. It seems as if your "system" would become a command and control nightmare at any fair sized working fire. Firefighter safety could be seriously compromised.
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I recall this topic coming up once before many years ago where a volunteer said it is difficult to have seat assignments, especially if they arrive in a POV. I recall the answer, that, yes, it is possible to still have seat assignments, one can easily put label tape by an SCBA as to what tools to grab and role for investigation, fire, etc. The purpose of a seat assignment is for the very basic tools and position to perform the tasks, once the company is together, they can be assigned as needed, but they still have the basic tools and expectations.
IMO, there is no reason that everyone should not get off a rig (or grab a pack) without having a tool and basic expectations. There is no reason this shouldn't be known ahead of time as opposed to the heat of the moment.
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Permalink Reply by Larry Record on
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A lot of this depends on equipment set-up prior to the response and the knowledge of what task or objective is to be met. ie is it first due, second in, mutual aid etc. I, as company officer, try to fill the driver's side jump seat first. We know what the two front seats jobs are. This next seat then has set tasks/tools to start with. Our first out engine is old school (SCBA on outside compartments and no intercom). This seat then can grab a pack as they walk down driver's side and then move around the rear of the engine to assist with ladder removal or additional tool grab/hose pull. This seat is also the easiest for verbal communication between officer and firefighter while the engine is in motion. The driver can see the firefighter as ff exits the rig to catch hydrant. If I actually get a fourth, BONUS. As other have said, Communicate, Train, Talk some more and then train again and again.
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It is a lot easier than one may think and doesn't really matter what is set up prior to the response. If one keeps riding assigments dept focused there shouldn't be an issue and it ensures you have the basics for those mutual aid calls, etc.
For us, riding assignments are a simple task and tools to grab.
On a Investigate/fire alarm....jr FF grabs the water can and axe. The senior FF graps the irons, Engineer remains with rig, Officer grabs a hook.
Fire....Jr FF is water supply and axe, Sr FF is irons and nozzle, officer has TIC and hook, Eng is at the panelMVA...jr FF axe, sr FF, irons, Eng, water supply
Second in...company is back up......same tool assignments for fire, except the engineer also will pack up with the crew and take a tool
Third in....company is RIT....same tools, and procure RIT cache from the truck company
Mutual aid....same tools....assigments will vary as needed
In the end, the purpose is that everyone has a tool and the company has their cache as needed so you don't have personnel going back to the rigs or freelancing. It helps to keep crews together and on task. If you are fire attack, then you have tools to get in, put out the fire and start overhaul. Same with back-up. Other tasks like laddering, utilities, and so forth can be accomplished as assigned, but at least you still have some basic tools with you.
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Permalink Reply by Firemedic Rob on
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So for a vollie or composite Dept., how do you accommodate for those days were you only get a crew of 3 vs days of 5 or 6?
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Permalink Reply by Jason Van Order on
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For a full time dept. Im sure it is easier to have seat assignments. But for a volly dept. it can get people mixed up in a hurry. We dont use seat assignments on our dept for the main fact that we just dont know who will show on any given call. We are given our assignments while en route to the scene. Once on scene we complete our task and go right to staging till given another task. No ifs ands or buts on that. You finish your task you butt better be in staging or you will face some form of discipline. As for communication issues when we are hired on we are given a number. That number is on each ff shield and on our accountability tag. To avoid further mixups with multiple depts on the same scene each dept in our county was given a dept number. For example our dept number is 5 and my ff number is 116. so for any radio traffic i go by 5116. On of our mutual aid depts also has a ff numbered 116 but their dept number is 2 so his number is 2116. Same with our officers county wide. they used to use the 101 102 103...system so it was very possible to have a couple 101's 102's 10whatever on a scene.
captnjak said:If you don't have seat assignments you have to make assignments on every response. This doesn't seem very efficient. How do you communicate? Face to face? How does this occur once members have begun to operate? If members are operating in remote positions, which they usually are, face to face isn't possible. So you have to use radios, but how do you address each other? By name? What if there are two guys named Bill? If a guy can forget his assignment before arrival, can't he forget it after arrival? Especially since it can be changing on every run?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the way you guys operate. It wouldn't be the first time, since I'm on a large urban full time department. It seems as if your "system" would become a command and control nightmare at any fair sized working fire. Firefighter safety could be seriously compromised.
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Do the smaller vollie departments have a minimum number of guys needed in order to turn out? Or a minimum to operate at scene? I realize that small emergencies, alarm investigations (nothing showing), etc can be easily handled by even one responder. Large scale emergencies and fires should have some kind of minimum response/turnout. If your minimum is three, then come up with a plan that assigns the three highest priority actions to the three responding. This can change depending on type of response.
For fires, couldn't a firefighter be assigned a position upon arrival, with highest priorities being addressed by earliest arriving members? Outside vent #1 could do outside recon and VES. Roof firefighter #2 could be assigened to assist roof #1 with recon and venting at roof level. Engine #1 officer and nozzle stretch line to location of fire. Engine #2 could assist with stretch and begin interior search. This being done as part of an overall SOP for a house fire would allow standardized titles, positions and tasks. Communications, coordination, operational efficiency and safety would all benefit. If Ladder #1 outside vent firefighter goes missing, the entire fireground would know he was VES position. They would know where to start looking for him immediately.
Jason,
Do you not work under supervision of company officers? You stated that you complete initial assignment and then report to staging. You are then given another assignment. Who besides the IC knows where you are and what you are doing? There appears to be no standardization.
I'd love to hear from smaller department members who DO use standard positions. Or tried it and went back to not using them. Can it work? I have to believe it can. And I have no doubt a good system would be safer and more efficient.
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We really dont have a "company officer" like full time depts have. Our dept is small. We have 4 officers (including chief) and only 18 firefighters. On every call we have at least one officer go to the scene directly to give a size up and call for additional resources asap. That officer becomes the IC of the event untill they decide to transfer command. So 90% of the time we know what we are dealing with before we even get on scene. For smaller incidents the IC also runs our staging. On lager events we will have a separate staging officer. The IC tells the staging officer what they want done and the SO assigns the tasks to those available. once finished those ff return to staging and check in with the staging officer. For example. Toned out to a room and contents fire. 2 ffs are sent to horizontal vent. After they vent they go to the staging area and check in with the staging officer. As for accountability we have tags with our numbers on them that clip to the back of our helmet. When assigned a task the IC or SO take the tags and records what task they are doing at that time.
captnjak said:Do the smaller vollie departments have a minimum number of guys needed in order to turn out? Or a minimum to operate at scene? I realize that small emergencies, alarm investigations (nothing showing), etc can be easily handled by even one responder. Large scale emergencies and fires should have some kind of minimum response/turnout. If your minimum is three, then come up with a plan that assigns the three highest priority actions to the three responding. This can change depending on type of response.
For fires, couldn't a firefighter be assigned a position upon arrival, with highest priorities being addressed by earliest arriving members? Outside vent #1 could do outside recon and VES. Roof firefighter #2 could be assigened to assist roof #1 with recon and venting at roof level. Engine #1 officer and nozzle stretch line to location of fire. Engine #2 could assist with stretch and begin interior search. This being done as part of an overall SOP for a house fire would allow standardized titles, positions and tasks. Communications, coordination, operational efficiency and safety would all benefit. If Ladder #1 outside vent firefighter goes missing, the entire fireground would know he was VES position. They would know where to start looking for him immediately.
Jason,
Do you not work under supervision of company officers? You stated that you complete initial assignment and then report to staging. You are then given another assignment. Who besides the IC knows where you are and what you are doing? There appears to be no standardization.
I'd love to hear from smaller department members who DO use standard positions. Or tried it and went back to not using them. Can it work? I have to believe it can. And I have no doubt a good system would be safer and more efficient.
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Jason Van Order said:We really dont have a "company officer" like full time depts have. Our dept is small. We have 4 officers (including chief) and only 18 firefighters. On every call we have at least one officer go to the scene directly to give a size up and call for additional resources asap. That officer becomes the IC of the event untill they decide to transfer command. So 90% of the time we know what we are dealing with before we even get on scene. For smaller incidents the IC also runs our staging. On lager events we will have a separate staging officer. The IC tells the staging officer what they want done and the SO assigns the tasks to those available. once finished those ff return to staging and check in with the staging officer. For example. Toned out to a room and contents fire. 2 ffs are sent to horizontal vent. After they vent they go to the staging area and check in with the staging officer. As for accountability we have tags with our numbers on them that clip to the back of our helmet. When assigned a task the IC or SO take the tags and records what task they are doing at that time.
captnjak said:Do the smaller vollie departments have a minimum number of guys needed in order to turn out? Or a minimum to operate at scene? I realize that small emergencies, alarm investigations (nothing showing), etc can be easily handled by even one responder. Large scale emergencies and fires should have some kind of minimum response/turnout. If your minimum is three, then come up with a plan that assigns the three highest priority actions to the three responding. This can change depending on type of response.
For fires, couldn't a firefighter be assigned a position upon arrival, with highest priorities being addressed by earliest arriving members? Outside vent #1 could do outside recon and VES. Roof firefighter #2 could be assigened to assist roof #1 with recon and venting at roof level. Engine #1 officer and nozzle stretch line to location of fire. Engine #2 could assist with stretch and begin interior search. This being done as part of an overall SOP for a house fire would allow standardized titles, positions and tasks. Communications, coordination, operational efficiency and safety would all benefit. If Ladder #1 outside vent firefighter goes missing, the entire fireground would know he was VES position. They would know where to start looking for him immediately.
Jason,
Do you not work under supervision of company officers? You stated that you complete initial assignment and then report to staging. You are then given another assignment. Who besides the IC knows where you are and what you are doing? There appears to be no standardization.
I'd love to hear from smaller department members who DO use standard positions. Or tried it and went back to not using them. Can it work? I have to believe it can. And I have no doubt a good system would be safer and more efficient.
Thanks for the reply. Command and control operations of small rural departments are foreign to me. Seems like you could run into "span of control" issues.
Are the SO and IC in the immediate vicinity of each other?
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