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Responding with No Crew
Are there any OSHA or NFPA guidelines as to how many members are to be on a single piece of apparatus when responding to a Call?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Todd Algie Young on
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You have it Right. 2 Ladder Trucks for a Major City in Ohio? Wrong. Just this weekend. 2 Fires Same Time in early AM. Both Aerial Ladders were out on Single story House Fires. I never Set up a Aerial Platform on a Single Story House Fire. But Staffing is Killing the Fire Dept. We used Ground ladders. Now it is impossible to have enough People to attack Fires let alone do Ventilation & Rescue.
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Yes it is the Real World. You are right about a incident occuring & nobodies show up to fill seats.
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Yes U are Right!
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I was not refuring to the Horse Drawn Equipment. I was refuring to Fire Service as recently as 25 yearss ago. You have not been around the Fire service very long Have YOU? During the 1950's to 1960's the Fire Service & the IAFF took the Cities to task. Fire & Police were making $2.12 a hour. After the Informational Pickets & many Unions telling the Cities that Police & Fire are the First & some times only contact with the City. Then the Contracts were changed to allow the Bigger Crews. Reduced work week on average of 72 hours to Average now 48 Hours. Typical 24 on 48 off duty. With Kelly Days every 6 weeks FLSA. (Fair Labor Standards Act) came into affect. With Vacations on 1 to 6 weeks So if you add it up? Days off were equal to or more than days Working.
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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on
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No there isn't. NFPA 1710 suggests 4 on an engine or truck, but not mandatory. Here is the article.
http://www.nfpa.org/journalDetail.asp?categoryID=1344&itemID=38...
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Are the staffing numbers a result of the NIST study or Is the NIST study simply a confirmation of 1710?
I don't know if either would apply. I went back to look at the study by NIST and the experiements were done in January and Febuary 2009, then there was compiling of data and the release of the report, which wasn't until late 2009. (I can't recall the exact date it was released, I just recall it being later in the year) The first time I was able to view the report was at the IAFF ALTS conference in January of 2010.
The NFPA 1710 I was citing was the 2010 edition and I'm not sure when or how revisions are done. Considering the time frame of both the NIST study and the date of the NFPA version, I wouldn't guess that one is a result of the other or a confirmation.
The NIST study does mention 1710, but addresses the time frame for the fireground, as opposed to mentioning actual staffing from the NFPA. The NIST study also consisted of experiemnts from 5 person to 2 person crews and the results of all. When looking at the data, the challenge was to discern all the info to what is more pertinent to one's dept if looking to use the data. The study is good, because it provides empiracle evidence, consistant time, consistent structure, consistent weather, and the experiments conducted by a neutral third party.
The problem with the study is that it provides a lot of data, charts, graphs, and so forth that if you just handed it to someone who doesn't have much understanding of the fire service, like an elected official, it would be a tough read. Some of the data had to be dug through to provide comparisons to what an individual dept wished to present. For instance the study provided results between a 5 person and 2 person crew and the disparities easily stand out.......however, if trying to compare a 4 person crew to three person, you have to do some digging.
That is what I basically did and comprised a synopsis of the study to include in a booklet we presented to our elected officials. The book consisted of internal and external comparables, like sized cities and depts, costs, tax base, and so forth. We included the synopsis to show the evidence contained in the NIST study to further back up our case, except to focus between 3 and 4 person crews. We did the same thing with the EMS staffing study conducted by NIST later in 2009.
If interested in what I did for the report I can send you a copy of how data was broken down.
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Permalink Reply by Michael S Carlson on
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Blake, I believe you are correct. I also am thinking that it is NFPA 1500. However; unless it has changed recently, I believe that its only 4 on an engine. It has happened in the past, I have been known to be wrong...... just ask my wife. LOL
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Thanks Jason. I forgot the "suggestion" wording of it. LOL
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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You are correct - My recollection was from a previous edition.
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Permalink Reply by paula beckham on
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in new zealand its a minimum of 4,paid and volly
however us vollys have being known to lone ranger it with one on the truck the key to that in get on the radio and call up help from comms when you get there put in your sit rep and start setting up for other responding units
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Permalink Reply by mike kretz on
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this happens on my dept. all the time. we have 15 names on our roster, but only 3-4 that show up.as far as rules on numbers we try to go by our s.o.p.s but we do what we need to ,to get the job done as safe as we can.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Steiz on
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The NFPA guidelines are all well and good. But how does a volunteer FD comply with that? MyDepartments fist due Engine only has seats for two, and mt second due Engine hold's Three.
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