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Problems with Arson Investigation and Today's Fire Service
Good evening everyone, as you most know I am new to this but I wanted to gain some insight from various people on here. Basically what I'm doing is gathering information on my final project for one of my college classes. I am about to obtain my Associate's Degree in Criminal Justice and for my final project for school I decided to do problems with today's fire service. I am gathering information where I am from my current sources in my area but I wanted a broader opinion to see what others like me think is the problem with today's arson investigation and some of today's fire fighting techniques. Any input is good but not absolutely necessary. Thank you all for your time.
Sincerely,
Joe Anderson
Strinestown Community Fire Company Station 26
Pennsylvania
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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Not sure what your asking. Is it that how we fight fires destroys evadence?
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Permalink Reply by Joseph Anderson on
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Oh no not that I know how that works, I'm just trying to find a problem that either affects today's firefighters or a problem that affects arson investigators. For this project I've got to "inform" the general public of a problem that affects today's fire services. And I was hoping someone could offer some insight because I sure ain't getting anywhere.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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For this project I've got to "inform" the general public of a problem that affects today's fire services
Depends on how far you want to stretch things. A big problem facing the fire service today is staffing, be it in volunteer and career depts. We keep seeing cuts made due to budgets, longer commutes for vollies, etc, etc.
So if you want to stretch it one way, you could say that because of less staffing, giving fires longer burn time, it can become further difficult to determine a cause of a fire, let alone if it was arson. It could be said that because of longer burn times that evidence of arson could be destroyed, making it difficult to use for conviction. One could also argue that since there is limited funds that programs like investigation etc suffers, due to limited training/education opportunities. This could further go towards FF training and lack of recognition of suspicious activities, or spotting evidence, etc.
Like I said though, you could stretch to make the argument, but in several places you are seeing a fire investigation task force, much like a mutual aid. For any fire to be ruled arson, it also means that all other possible sources of ignition have to be ruled out.
My bet is you are finding difficulties with the topic because it is a long process to determine arson, let alone a suspect. There are resources from typically state and federal agencies to assist with an arson, but that is after some initial investigations. In most areas and fires, they are not arson, so there are just many factors to try and combine things.
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Well considering it has be at least a 20 page paper give or take stretching is a pretty positive thing. But you've given me things to think about I've never even considered I will also make sure if i use anything you've said that you do get credit for it. And i might add the difficulties that face not only career depts but volunteer is funding cuts as well as staffing. I want to thank you for your information and I will most likely use this with your consent
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Permalink Reply by Russ on
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Just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents. The biggest problem with arson is that there is a less than 1% conviction rate for arsonists because usually the acused is convicted for something else such as insurance fraud or other crome connected to the crime.
In arson the physical evidence has to match up with your findings. Just because the dog barked and the sample came back with gasolene, we still have to find the person that did it and prove they did it unless they confess and they still have to be able to tell us in detail how he or she started the fire and if that story does not match the physical evidence, there is no case.
investigators credibility could be attacked, legal manourving causes delays, a thousand things causes cases to go south real fast.
investigators can help themselves by becomming certified through IAAI or NAFI. That level of certification gives them credibility and with the legal community holding the fire investigation community to NFPA921, it would be in every investigator's interest to become DEEPLY versed in it since the legal community uses it as a tool to impeach what fire investigators do to the point of suggesting that its a law (which it is not).
there are too many issues related to firefighting and investigations but i suggest you check with your state fire marshal's office or local law enforcement for direction but problems with firefighting and arson investigation may not be a correct title
FYI...my final report for my FS degree was on fires in firehouses (got an A) good luck with yours
Russ Randolph
Certified Fire & Explosion Investigator
Manatee Co. Arson Task Force(now disbanded)
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Cause and determination for years in my department was electrical for structure fires 99% if the time. One fires cause was guessed to be a snake in the electrical panel box. I went through Fire Arson Investigator 2 certification and did so for five years. I'm still convinced that a lot of it was worthless work unless you had a good SA.
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Note: If you make a type using an iPhone, you cannot correct anything once you hit send.
SA should have been DA, which stands for District Attorney or in our case, county counsel.
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Thank you with all the work i've put into it I hope i do get an A. I will let you all know when it's done in about 8 weeks.
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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I problem I have seen being both a firefighter and a Nationaly Certified Fire & Explosion Investigator through NAFI, is that some investigators wont allow firefighters to do their jobs. I was on the tip of the initial attack line at a house fire a few months ago, and I used a straight stream, which is what I prefer (saves on steam burns and thermal layer disruption which is a whole other discussion!!) Apparrently, this didnt set well with one of our county investigators. He says it makes a mess and destroys evidence and blows the contents of the room all over making the recreation more difficult. I looked at him and said that in the hands of an untrained firefighter yes; that could happen, and I asked if that was the case for this fire and he just looked around and said "well...no, but it happens"
I think there needs to be more communication between the firefighters and the investigators, fire marshals, etc, so that a course can be designed to teach both firefighter and investigator to work better together as a team. I believe "Fire Behavior & Arson Awareness" here in NY is a good place to start but I feel it needs more detail about what the hardships of investigating fires are, so that the firefighters have a better understanding of what needs to happen to determine the cause.
Good Luck on your paper, I hope you do well!
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Permalink Reply by Sean Coutorie on
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i can't speak for other departments, but the main problem in OUR area is that if the FMO does not deem it important enough to make the scene, they will "come out tomorrow and take a look". this pretty much makes investigation worthless. one of the criteria to call out an investigator is at least $50,000 damage or more...or a fatality. in order to investigate an arson fire, you must go to the scene (not ask dispatch to give you the info over the phone), collect evidence and actually conduct an investigation. but that's just one old guy's opinion.
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I do agree with you there I guess the benefit we have here in my area is that we have more than one Fire Marshal and there always on call and they respond within 2 hours to get on the scene depends on where there coming from. And every opinion counts trust me.
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Like many city dept. IFD arson investigators are from the rank and file. These are firefighters with 10 plus yrs on the street. They are not only sent through arson school but portions of the police academy. Each fire arson investigator is partnered with a police officer who comes from either vice or gang task force. Our arson investigatores have arresting power and are armed.
The fact that they have worked the street as firefighters is a plus, because they know the areas there going into and the crews that are fighting the fires.
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